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Old 9th May 2012, 14:56
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What If ?

Gents,

I attend a rather interesting discussion at my local Bomber Command association recently. We had a guest speaker who gave an interesting if but simplistic account of the bomber offensive flown by Bomber Command, his speciality was the US 8th Air Force of which most of the talk was about. However he did pose a few questions that had all those who attended discussing over a few pints soon after. I have picked out 5 of the questions and recorded them below.

I am interested in any comments, this is not in anyway an attempt to start a slagging match just an attempt to gauge my associations reactions to a wider audience. I must point out that this is nothing to do with command and the questions were posed with the benefit of hindsight.


Given the air supremacy of the Allies from mid 1944 would it have been more beneficial in terms of lower losses to convert to daylight raids.

Should the manufacture of the H.P Halifax from 1943 been switched over to the manufacture of the Avro Lancaster, if so what were the benefits?

Of all the navigational / bombing aids used by Bomber Command what had the greatest influence on Bomber Commands war time campaign.

Should more urgency have been shown with the development of No.100 Group and the use of Mosquito intruders to escort the night attacks flown by Bomber Command. Should more Mosquitos been allocated to this role?

Was Bomber Command correct in continuing the area bombing raids on Germany up to the end of WW.II.

Looking forward to any comments.

Regards

Steve
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Old 9th May 2012, 16:39
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
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Re: What If ?

1. No, because of the lack of sufficient escort fighters and appropriate training and experience within Bomber Command

2. No. The losses in total production numbers due to the changeover would have been considerable, the demand for Merlins would not provide adequate numbers for such an exchange, and the Hercules Halifax was very nearly as good as the Lancaster anyway.

3. Pass, but I would suggest Gee.

4. Was it possible to apply more urgency? Where were these extra Mosquito night fighters to come from? Home Defence was still an important role, and radar sets were not widely available. The best were not cleared for use over enemy territory anyway.

5. No. It had gained the expertise for more precise targetting that it lacked earlier.

That's my set of opinions.......
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Old 9th May 2012, 16:47
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Re: What If ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Boak View Post
1. No, because of the lack of sufficient escort fighters and appropriate training and experience within Bomber Command

2. No. The losses in total production numbers due to the changeover would have been considerable, the demand for Merlins would not provide adequate numbers for such an exchange, and the Hercules Halifax was very nearly as good as the Lancaster anyway.

3. Pass, but I would suggest Gee.

4. Was it possible to apply more urgency? Where were these extra Mosquito night fighters to come from? Home Defence was still an important role, and radar sets were not widely available. The best were not cleared for use over enemy territory anyway.

5. No. It had gained the expertise for more precise targetting that it lacked earlier.

That's my set of opinions.......
Hi Graham,

Thank you, I do tend to agree
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Old 9th May 2012, 22:11
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: What If ?

1. To some extent they did, but did not have enough escorts to go over permanently to daylight- particularly on deep penetration flights

2. Switch probably not practicable by 1943 as too much already invested

3. In decreasing order Gee, Oboe, H2S, GH

4. Definitely, in particular centimetric AI (not just AI IV) should have been released for use over the Continent from early/mid 43. NF squadrons were doing intruder ops in 43 but did could not use fully AI equiped a/c. Isn't hindsight fun, of course the war was going to finish in 45, everybody knew that didn't they, so it was patently safe to risk the more capable technology falling into enemy hands.

5. Could have switched more to precision, though to some extent that happened anyway in the oil and transportation campaigns. The 8th AF was area bombing all the time when they dropped on H2X - everyone was doing it, only some were up front about it.

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MG
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Old 10th May 2012, 00:37
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Re: What If ?

1. Had the RAF and USAAF planned and coordinated attacks, IMO, the RAF could have integrated into US daylight ops, folded in the RAF Mustangs for intermediate range escort (or convert to 85 Gal tanks for the Mustang III). The RAF bombsight was excellent, the flight crews were excellent.

I suspect three issues would have to be overcome - namely 1. Major Congestion when consolidating 4,000 heavy bombers into formation take offs, assembly and organization into Task Forces all over East Anglia - or move many RAF Bomber Command concentrations south of London. 2.) Re-train in tight large formation flying to enable 'escortable' packages, 3.) Integrate radio and radar command and control between the two Air Forces so that Ground to bomber, bomber to escort fighter communications would be enabled.

Mid 1944 would prove impossible absent decision, planning and execution starting in December 1943 - and Nobody was sure daylight bombing would succeed. However, to obtain deep target escort wasn't feasible until after the Invasion, as the 8th AF plus 354th FG was Not enough to provide completely adequate long range target escort for even 8th AF BC through D-Day. However, If TAC and 9th AF sorted out their shorter range assets to free up RAF Mustang units from May 1944 forward - and converted all Mustang III's with the 85 Gallon tank - it would be an interesting possibility from say July 1944 through the end of the war.

Question - does daylight bombing in formation at 15,000 feet drive AAA losses far higher? It was bad enough at 22-26K.

The 8th BC could have learned a great deal regarding blind bombing accuracy with synergy between the two air forces in accepting and adopting each other's 'best practices'

I do believe RAF losses would have been much lower by shifting to daylight in mid 1944 and conversely, the LW twin engine night fighter assets would have been worthless opposing all daylight RAF heavy bomber attacks... it would have been an interesting dilemma for the LW but perhaps they keep the NJG force intact to oppose Mossie attacks at night.

I also believe that the Mossie should NOT be switched to daylight ops - but be focused on high value targets at night where the target acquisition was feasible and accurate.
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Old 10th May 2012, 00:44
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Re: What If ?

I forgot to mention that one of the probable benefits to switching the major RAF assets to daylight would have been a re-focus on strategic attacks, and assuming the staffs could effectively work together, the combination of 'precision' (don't laugh) attacks on Engine manufacturers, refineries, ball bearings and Electric power grid with 4000+ pound bombs may very well have shortened the war.

It certainly would have significantly reduced the ability of Germany to fight.
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Old 10th May 2012, 07:36
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Re: What If ?

1.
2. No, reasons as given by Graham
3. Gee, even after Germans began jam it, it gave accurate fixes during the first part of flight, so navigators got good idea of prevailing winds and so made subsequent navigation much easier. And it helped in finding the home base on return trip. And H2S, even if as active radar made homing to it possible, it was not constricted by range or limited to only small number of planes per raid as Oboe and helped much in navigation accuracy.
4. probably, anyway the Stirling shot down near Rotterdam gave magnetron to Germans very early 1943, so if H2S was allowed over enemy territory why not magnetron AI radar.
5. No, after BC got new navaids and developed pathfinder tactics which allowed greater accuracy, area bombing IMHO became immoral.

Juha
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