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Old 31st January 2008, 21:03
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
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"Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Hi all!

I am trying to find out Normandie claims over Bf110 on 13 july 1943. Any info?

How many? Times? Locations? May be combat reports...

Best wishes!
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Old 7th February 2008, 06:31
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

In aerojournal HS number 3 on Normandie Niemen :
Littolff, Castelain & Durand each claim 1 Bf110G while escorting IL-2s over Koselsk : 19h40 (East European Time ?)
The patrol face 24 Bf110s, and 5 of them try to intercept the Il2s
On the German side, the Bf110G2 Wk Nr 6111 (2.ZG1) is highly damaged, and G9+BA is destroyed (Major Joachim Blechsmidt kimmodore of 1.ZG1 and the rear gunner killed). They most probably meet French claims.
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Old 7th February 2008, 06:37
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

An account, in French here :
http://mairie.pagespro-orange.fr/fre.../m+soviet.html

And the Aerojournal HS gives an account from Castelain
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Old 7th February 2008, 17:46
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Hi! Thx for answer!

From SKG 210 / ZG 1 damage/losslist by John Vasco:

13-07-43
Bf 110 G-2, Stab./ZG 1, S9+BA, W.Nr. 6295, 100% , Obstlt. Joachim Blechschmidt (MiA), Uffz. Hans Wörl (MiA), Force-landed behind Russian lines lines following combat with Russian fighters. Both crew seen to leave the aircraft. Uljanowo - Bolchow (Actually Ulyanovo - Bolkhov)

Bf 110 G-2, 2./ZG 1, W.Nr. 6111, 25%, Damaged by enemy fighters. Near Uljanowo.

Bf 110 G-2, 3./ZG 1, W.Nr. 6292, 15%, Technical problem. Uljanowe- Bolchoff.

Vitaly Gorbach, author "Nad Ognennoy Dugoy" book about air combats during Kursk Battle. sayd that it is thought that Blechschmidt became PoW and somewhere in archives there are report of questioning.

For this day and area I received following data.According combat report of 303 iad:

14.49-15.47 (briefly, report of 198 shap is large): 4 Il-2 of 198 shap (leader - Kap.Malinkin) with escort of 4 Yak-7 of 172 iap (leader Maj. Vyazovik), mission to attack enemy retreating troops on road Durnevo-Sorokino-Ulyanovo, came under attack of 6 Bf110 from 6 oclock and 6 Bf110 + 2 Fw190 from 12 oclock.

1st pair of Il-2 was attacked by 4 Bf110, 1 of them attacked Il-2 of Kap.Malinkin, but Bf110 was hit by Il-2 wingman (Efimov) and breaked. Another Bf110 shot down Il-2 of Malinkin. 2nd pair of Bf110 attacked Il-2 of Efimov, but breaked because Il-2 gunner fire.

2nd pair of Il-2 came under attack of Bf110's, failed to return on combat missions.

Claims:
Bf110 damaged by Il-2 Lt. Efimov, 198 shap (attack from behind, ~30 metres - result : "left engine burned, heavy smoke);
Bf110 shot down by Yak-7 Maj. Vyazovik;
Both in area of Ulyanovo.

Losses of 198 shap:
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 7353), Malinkin (Pilot), Smirnov (Gunner) - KiA;
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 5667), Zinovsky(Pilot), Rezodubov (Gunner)- MiA;
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 1295), Nemira(Pilot), Ivanov (Gunner)- MiA,

"19.22-20.20 8 Yak-9 (leader Kap. Littolff), escort mission to Durnevo area. Air combay on alt.=800-1200 against 20 Me110. Claims - 3 Me110 (Littolff, Castelain, Durand). All 3 Me110 crashed in area of bridge. Durand fought against 8 Me110, Castelain made attack from below."

Must add: in area of bringe across Vytebet river was heaviest battle of 11 Guards Army, tryed to forse it. All over the day bridge was under attack of german aviation.

Your report says: Ktsyn (Кцынь) area. But it is far away from Ulyanovo-Durnevo area.

Map: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000tkfw

Durnevo - Дурнево
Ulyanovo - Ульяново
Sorokino - Сорокино
Ktsyn - Кцынь
Krapivna - Крапивна (Herrmann KiA of AAA on thext day, 14.07.43 over it)

In that fight 198 shap vs ZG 1 one Il-2 claimed by Hptm. Herrmann, directly in Ulyanovo area. No more claims of Bf110 in that time and area, but it known that 2 other Il-2's were shot down by Bf110.

As for me, I can only propose that they are "unclaimed" victoryes of Blechschmitt, who attaked least pair of Il-2's, shot them, and then attacked leader of 1st pair, but was damaged by Lt. Efimov and breaked, trying to emland with burning engine. In same time Hermann "finished" Il-2 of Malinkin.

Anyway, to be 100% certain, we need TIME of loss of Blechschmitt. But we have no.
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Last edited by Evgeny Velichko; 7th February 2008 at 21:09.
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Old 7th February 2008, 19:45
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanba View Post
An account, in French here :
http://mairie.pagespro-orange.fr/fre.../m+soviet.html

And the Aerojournal HS gives an account from Castelain
Where exactly is the account in the link that you have given?
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Old 7th February 2008, 21:11
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Translated using Google
Quote:
13rd victory of Captain Albert Littolff

Bridge Ksin (USSR), July 13, 1943


Last mission of the day. Whenever German hunters have emerged. The front Kursk was empty fighter units to strengthen the region of Orel.
At 19h20, fifteen Yak off for a mission of protection. They escort ten Ilyushin Il-2 to the bridge Ksin. A collection truck is reported enemies in a wood and Me 110 are on the cover.

The Cne Littolff 12 saw the first twenty hunters in Germany. They formed two circles stacked defensive turning point in the opposite direction. For two patrol, the Yak darken in the job, which completely surprised the Germans. Castelain déboule by 4 below and fired a 110 to less than 100 metres. The German rolled onto his left and pique by smoking. Five Me 110 had separated from the crowd to attack the Il-2. Littolff pique on their right and seeks the lead aircraft at 200 meters. Its shell reaches the canopy and the right engine, which caught fire. The Messerschmitt attempting an emergency landing but crashed and exploded. The S-Lt Durand 7 descends a Me 110. The Sturmovik have taken blood and fire the small wood just below and come away full East. The rest of Messerschmitt broke the fight. Everyone returned unharmed.

The Bf 110G-2 (WNr.6129, S9 + BA) was down by Littolff led by Obersleutnant Joachim Bleschschmitt, Kommander of ZG 1 and his gunner was Unteroffizier Hans Wörl.
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Old 8th February 2008, 10:53
jeanba jeanba is offline
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko View Post

For this day and area I received following data.According combat report of 303 iad:

14.49-15.47 (briefly, report of 198 shap is large): 4 Il-2 of 198 shap (leader - Kap.Malinkin) with escort of 4 Yak-7 of 172 iap (leader Maj. Vyazovik), mission to attack enemy retreating troops on road Durnevo-Sorokino-Ulyanovo, came under attack of 6 Bf110 from 6 oclock and 6 Bf110 + 2 Fw190 from 12 oclock.

1st pair of Il-2 was attacked by 4 Bf110, 1 of them attacked Il-2 of Kap.Malinkin, but Bf110 was hit by Il-2 wingman (Efimov) and breaked. Another Bf110 shot down Il-2 of Malinkin. 2nd pair of Bf110 attacked Il-2 of Efimov, but breaked because Il-2 gunner fire.

2nd pair of Il-2 came under attack of Bf110's, failed to return on combat missions.
Very interesting account, thank you.
Do you know which version of Yak7 the y used, was it the "bubble canopy variant ?
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Old 18th July 2009, 00:24
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanba View Post
Very interesting account, thank you.
Do you know which version of Yak7 the y used, was it the "bubble canopy variant ?
Last versions of Yak-7B had such, as Yak-9. Difference is: 7 had 2 UBS guns, but 9 had 1.
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Old 18th July 2009, 12:07
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Being the author of the book on Normandie-Niémen, I must be fair.
Castelain statement is as follows:
"The sudden dive and the smoke belching from the 110 leads me to believe in a positive result, but being attacked by another Me 110 I was not able to watch it crash".
The claim will be confirmed by ground witnesses.

Littolff's claim is less doubtful, since he watched "his" 110 crash 5 km NW Kstin bridge.

Which one is Bleschmidt's -if any - remains an open question.

Chris
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:45
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943

Me 110 shoot down the 1"th July 1943 By the 1st VA :

1 for the 2nd IAK (Corps of fighters = 2 divisions = 7gv IAD (1st GV IAP : 27 Yak-7b, 89th GV IAP : 30 Yak-7b and 146 IAP : 32 Yak-7b) and 215 IAD (2nd Gv IAP, 263th and 522th IAP) )
1 for 224 ShaD (Sturmoviks division), one damaged for the 233 ShaD perhaps this of the 198 IAP ?????
1 for the 303 IAD (Figthers division = 18 Gv IAP, 20 IAP, 168th IAP and 523th IAP) this below report of the 18 GvIAP.
1 for 309 IAD. : (49th, 162th, 172th and 272th IAP)
3 for the french GC3 "Normandie"

14th soviet aviation regiment with 4 squadrons and two free french squadrons.

Location :

Ulianovo :

One shoot by Major Nikolaî Aleksevitch Biazovin dead 15th July 1943) of the 172 IAP (beetwen 14h49 and 15h57 near Ulianovo.

Архив: ЦАМО, Фонд: 20270, Опись: 1, Дело: 11, Лист начала документа в деле: 96.

Perhaps :

Bf 110 G-2 (6111) 2./Z.G. 1
Enemy fighters. Near Uljanowo 25% F


One other Me-110 claim in the " Raume von Uljanowo"

Repport of the 18th GvIAP for the 13th July 1943 : One shoot near Yagodnaia (Raume von Uljanowo) by the Captain Siberin of the 18 GvIAP (303 IAD) at 11.55 a;m.

ЦАМО, Фонд: 20265, Опись: 1, Дело: 18, Лист начала документа в деле: 137

"At 11.55 7 yak7 under the command of Captain Sibirin accompanied 6 IL-2 to the Yagodnaya district. When the target approached at a height of 300-600 meters, they met 6 Me-110, 4 fw-190, 2 Me-109, which they got out to attack the attack aircraft. Captain Sibirin, at an altitude of 300 meters, attacked from behind from a 1/4 angle from a distance of 70-50 meters, shot down 1 Me-110, which was crashed and burn 3 km south-east Yagodnaya."

3 km south-east of Yagodnaya it's near Gorodok.

Perhaps ;

Bf 110 G-2 (6292) 3./Z.G. 1
Technical failure. Sljanowo-Bolchoff 15% F

or

Bf 110 G-2 (6252) Pz.Jg.St. Z.G. 1
Mihatsch, Ltn. Werner FF
Weiß, Uffz. Harry BF
WIA due to Flak. Bf MIA.
West of Gorodok 100% F

I must have to read the report of the ground unity for DCA activity.

We have no proof of the destruction of an Me-110 by an aircraft of the 198th SHAP

5.30pm report from the 198th Shap. Архив: ЦАМО, Фонд: 22435, Опись: 0017416, Дело: 0001, Лист начала документа в деле: 275

Group of 4 IL-2 planes -
Leader captain MALINKIH - sub-lieutenant gunner Smirnov,
Deputy: Lieutenant EFIROV - machine gunner Dobrov,
Winger Sub-Lieutenant ZINOVSKII, machine gunner Redovubov,
Sub-Lieutenant HEMILYA - machine gunner Ivanov
at 3.20 p.m. from a height of 600 meters on a low-level flight approach attacked artillery positions on the southern outskirts of the village. Sorokino.
Leaving the attack, Captain Malinkin - machine gunner Smirnov in plane No. 77353,
Sub-Lieutenant Zinovskii, Redovubov machine gunner, in plane n ° 5667,
Second Lieutenant Nemilya - air. Ivanovna gunners plane number 1295
did not return from the combat mission.
The position and condition of the crews are unknown.
According to the group's deputy, Lieutenant EFIMOV -
Captain MALIKIN and ZINOVSKY were shot dead in the area of ​​Smetskie Vysilki - Nov ogryn. Ml. Lieutenant NEMILYA left the Sorokino area with a heading of 80 °.

It is only in the following report that we have some explanation. This shows that the pilots only have a partial view of the events.


Sorokino = 35 Ost 54421

Most likely because the pilots of 172 IAP give the region of Ylianovo as the sector of the attack.

13.07.43 Ofw. Rudolf Rademacher 1./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,443: at 200 m. 14.14 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 617

07.13.43 Ltn. Günther Scheel 2./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,442: at 600 m. 14.12 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 615

13.07.43 Ofw. Rudolf Rademacher 1./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,442: at 200 m. 14.09 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 616

I continue, look for them in the archives

PS : Ktyn is a bridge on the Recceta river not on the Bytebet the flowing river of the "Raume von Ulianovo".

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 6th April 2021 at 16:20.
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