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Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

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  #21  
Old 8th November 2020, 00:24
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello,


Currently on delcampe are two photos of Breguet machines:


Breguet Michelin BM 4 BR.392


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...120386838.html



Breguet Bre.14 B2L? No.6847


https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collecti...120456588.html


I have not previously seen B2L on the rudder of a Bre.14, but then I'm no expert and it may be more common place than I assume.


Regards,


Clint
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  #22  
Old 8th November 2020, 08:30
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello Clint

The 14 B2L is the Liberty engine powered version of the 14 B2 bomber. According to Henri Lacaze book on Breguet planes, about 200 were built by Michelin and Bellanger (car manufacturer), after November 1918. According to his serial number, this one could come from Bellanger, 1919.

Regards

Jean
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  #23  
Old 8th November 2020, 10:24
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Jean (Clint)

I confess I am not entirely happy with the two books Lacaze wrote for Lela Presse.
They lack far too much in detail on each type, especially production details.

Looking at what Alan Toelle wrote in his Windsock Data Special back in 2003 on the type 14, one gets a much better picture of its production and serial number ranges.

For instance we know three manufacturers were getting access to the Liberty engine, besiude the two already mentioned, Breguet themselves were also the recipients of a few. Since Breguet only built the reconnaissance model (A2) their Liberty powered aircraft were called Ap2.

Quantity delveries of the L-engine only started in September 1918 and by the end of November 428 had been delivered, Michelin received 200, Breguet 51 and Bellanger 38.
By June 1919 a total of 3575 engines had been received.

In Toelle's book there are pretty detailed production listings of all the eight companies that built the type up to June 1919.

From these listings it is not possible to make out how many Ap2 or B2L that were built, but I think it is a safe bet to say that neither Michelin nor Bellanger used the engine anywhere else, while Breguet might have done so.

All three companies built the type right up to June 1919 but at least back in 2003 it was not known how many by either Breguet or Michelin. Thus it is basically impossible even to make a guess how many of these were Liberty powered.

Lacaze guesstimate of 200 built by the end of WW 1 seems reasonable enough, but the final total must be much, much higher.

Cheers
Stig
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  #24  
Old 8th November 2020, 16:12
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Jean/Stig,


Thank you both for the replies. I have to say I should have consulted Lacaze before posting. Unfortunately I chose the wrong reference work


Stig, when you say pretty detailed production listings in the Toelle work, are actual serial blocks given? I'm assuming not since you state that its not known how many B2L were produced by either Breguet or Michelin.



Regards,


Clint
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  #25  
Old 8th November 2020, 17:23
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Yes Clint

He tries to do so. The postwar production is much less discussed in the book and some yearly production numbers are still missing.

Since the Liberty engined versions seem to have been simply mixed in, there is no way (for me at least) to know if a given serial number block is for a let's say Bre 14A2 or a Bre 14Ap2 and so on.

It is possible the various engines used were applied to airframes in straightforward blocks, but if they are known, the book does not show that as far as I can see.

Cheers
Stig
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  #26  
Old 8th November 2020, 17:26
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hi Stig,


Thanks. Next time I see the book on ebay I'll consider bidding.


Regards,


Clint
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  #27  
Old 9th February 2021, 13:56
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of a Breguet 14 on its back at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/photo-origin...UAAOSwzehgHTG6


The insignia looks very like that used by N87/SPA87, but given recent insignia errors on my part, some mistake perhaps?


Regards,


Clint
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  #28  
Old 11th February 2021, 19:08
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello Clint

The "white cat" can belong either to SPA 87, either to the training division of the Bourget airfield, from 1919 onwards. SPA 87 was disbanded August 7th 1919. On the available photos, the cat of the SPA 87 is without circle, and what will a Breguet do in a Spad Escadrille (but the military has is own logic) ? On the available photos of the training division, the cat is enclosed in a circle.

So, IMHO, we have more probably a plane of the trainçng division of the Bourget airfield.

Regards

Jean Schreiber
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  #29  
Old 11th February 2021, 19:15
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello Jean,


I completely agree with your logic. The aircraft is from the Division d'entraînement du Bourget. Also, full disclosure, Bertrand H wrote to me off board with the same conclusion as yourself.


Regards,Clint









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  #30  
Old 6th March 2021, 21:35
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Breguet

Hello,


Currently on ebay are two photos of damaged Breguet Bre 14 at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Kampffl...cAAOSwEJ9gQ9zV


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Kampffl...AAAOSwLrNgQ9wb


Regards,


Clint
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