5 December 1944 raid to Hamm/Soest

[Franek Grabowski]

Hi
Does anyone know what German units opposed RAF raid to Hamm/Soest on 5 December 1944? Certainly, I, II and IV/JG 27 was involved, clashing with No 91 and No 504 Sqns, and claiming three Spitfires for actual loss of one. Not sure of their losses.
Any other German units involved?
TIA
Franek

[Rottler]

Hello Franek,

according to JFV 13/II and 13/V the I., II., III. and IV./JG 27 as well as the IV./JG 54 were involved.
German claims:
I./JG 27 1 Spitfire near Haltern-Gladbeck
II./JG 27 1 Mustang north of Scholven
IV./JG 27 1 Spitfire area Dortmund-Wesel.
German losses:
I./JG 27 2 Bf 109
II./JG 27 5 Bf 109
III./JG 27 1 Bf 109
IV./JG 27 3 Bf 109
IV./JG 54 1 Fw 190.

Regards
Leo

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks Leo!
Interesting, that I can find RAF victories for just 8-1-1 aircraft, though it was supposed 2-0-0 should have been credited to a pilot who failed to return. I guess there is no more info on circumstances?
Franek

[MW Giles]

I guess you might not have

12:00 195 Sqn F/O J R Disher Lancaster I NG305/C
Me109 1.00 Destroyed
5145N 0635E 20,000 ft
Sgt D F Jones MUG
Sgt S B Le Brun RG

Martin

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks Martin, but I got it already, though later than posted here! Now, the question is, who clashed whom.

[MW Giles]

If you want to go through the RAF escort squadrons for Ramrod 1394

(11/13 would indicate that 13 took off but two returned early). The headings come from the 11 Group ORB. The numbers against the squadrons are from the squadron ORB, often they do not agree.

133 Wing 32/33 Mustangs (11 Grp ORB)
Hamm Escort Front 133 Wing Mustang 129 Sqn 12
Hamm Escort Front 133 Wing Mustang 133 Wing 1
Hamm Escort Front 133 Wing Mustang 306 Sqn 8/9
Hamm Escort Front 133 Wing Mustang 316 Sqn 10/11

150 Wing 30/37 Mustangs (11 Group ORB)
Hamm Escort Rear 150 Wing Mustang 19 Sqn 8/10
Hamm Escort Rear 150 Wing Mustang 65 Sqn 7/12
Hamm Escort Rear 150 Wing Mustang 122 Sqn 8/12
Hamm Escort Rear 150 Wing Mustang 150 Wing 1

Manston Wing 39/45 Spitfires
Hamm Escort Withdrawal Manston Spitfire 91 Sqn 12/13 1+
Hamm Escort Withdrawal Manston Spitfire 118 Sqn 8/10
Hamm Escort Withdrawal Manston Spitfire 124 Sqn 11/13
Hamm Escort Withdrawal Manston Spitfire 504 Sqn 9/10
Hamm Escort Withdrawal Manston Spitfire Manston Wing 1

Hamm Top Cover Bradwell Bay Mustang 64 Sqn 12
Hamm Top Cover North Weald Mustang 234 Sqn 7/9

Heimbach Escort Hawkinge Spitfire 441 Sqn 9/11
Heimbach Escort Hawkinge Spitfire Hawkinge Wing 1

Detling Wing 22/24 Spitfires
Heimbach Escort Front Detling Spitfire 1 Sqn 11/12
Heimbach Escort Front Detling Spitfire 165 Sqn 10/12
Heimbach Escort Front Detling Spitfire Detling Wing 1

Bradwell Bay Wing 24/25 Spitfires
Heimbach Escort Rear Bradwell Bay Spitfire 126 Sqn 12/13
Heimbach Escort Rear Bradwell Bay Spitfire 312 Sqn 12

North Weald Wing 22/23 Spitfires
Heimbach Target Cover/Withdrawal North Weald Spitfire 310 Sqn 8/9
Heimbach Target Cover/Withdrawal North Weald Spitfire 313 Sqn 13
Heimbach Target Cover/Withdrawal North WealdSpitfire North Weald Wing 1



Martin

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks Martin, most interesting! As usual those raids were very complex. So bad nobody wrote a history of them.

To complicate things further, it seems 2 TAF was also involved, with No 412 Sqn engaging the enemy in Wesel area. Had been exact crash locations known, some matching should be possible.

[MW Giles]

5 Spitfires of 412 Sqn took off to attack a target S of Coesfeld. Due to cloud the results of bombing were not observed. On the way back to base 50 plus Me109s were encountered S of Wesel.

F/O Murray 2 destroyed and 2 probables, F/L Banks 2 probables.
1 Spitfire missing F/O Githero had one probable

Therefore just in the area. 50 plus 109s must have come as a nice surprise to five Spitfires


Regarding Ramrod 1394
100 plus (Fw190/Me109s) E/a were seen at 18,000ft by 91 Sqn which attacked e/a head on claiming 3-0-1 (two of which resulted from a mid-air collision). 316 Sqn sighted 4 plus Fw190s E of Emmerich and also 8 plus Me109s. Attacks were abortive. Spitfires of 504 Sqn chased an Fw190 and an Me109 which were attacking a Lancaster over Hamm

Taken from Fighter Command daily summary

Martin

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks!
Glithero landed behind enemy lines due to lack of fuel. I believe No 182 Sqn also could have scored against the formation of JG 27. Now, if we have German crash locations, something may appear from the mess.
Franek

[MW Giles]

OK, hint taken. From Jagdfliegerverbande... Teil 13/II and 13/V

I/JG27

Stab/I/JG27 Ofhr Reiner + Bf109 G-14 781307 - Sandhofen 100%
Three other Bf109 G-14s lost but reason and place not given

11:43 4/JG27 Fw H Wilke claimed a Spitfire Haltern/Gladbeck

II/JG27

5/JG27 FhjUffz C Kästner + Bf109 G-14 783926 black 2 shot down by fighter Hervest-Dorsten 99%, crashed

5/JG27 Fw H Prohaska wounded Bf109 G-10 470251 black 9 shot down by fighter Gelsenkirchen-Buer, baled out 99%

5/JG27 Uffz W Hornberger + Bf109 G-14 461171 black << shot down by fighter Gladbeck near Essen 99% crashed

6/JG27 Uffz W Gerlach + Bf109 G-10 491177 yellow 3 shot down by fighter Gelsenkirchen 99% crashed

II/JG27 Bf109 G crashed Gelsenkirchen - Luftkampf

11:48 5/JG27 Fw H Prohaska claimed a P-51 N of Scholven

III/JG27

III/JG27 Bf109 K-4 lost due to combat, place unknown 100%

IV/JG27

13/JG27 Fhr H Schleimer + Bf109 G-10 490766 crashed in combat Holsterhausen near Dorsten 100%
14/JG27 Uffz A Liener wounded Bf109 G-10 490166 crashed due to combat Gladbeck 100 %, baled out
15/JG27 Fw R Schiller + Bf109 G-10 490682 crashed due to combat Gladbeck 100%

11:55 Uffz H Roesinger claimed a Spitfire in Dortmund-Wesel area

IV/JG54

IV/JG54 11:50hrs Fw H Marx + Fw190 A-8 380170 shot down by Spitfire in Dortmund area 100%

All four Gruppen of JG27 and IV/JG54 scrambled from Rheine, Hopsten, Hesepe, Achmer and Vörden at 11:00 hrs and flew as a group SW meeting the British bombers at 11:40 in the Gladbeck-Gelsenkirchen-Dortmund area

Martin