Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Franek Grabowski]

Keith
Really, I am not sure what you are after. The Liberator was a well known case of Me 110 shot down by Slovak airmen of 13 Letka back in the summer of 1944. The Lancaster (or Halifax not sure) was a Mosquito of No 13 Sqn downed by Warren Peake. More such cases are known, but I am really in no position to list them here.
I cannot show you the photo of the 109, I do not have it handy, but it was taken by F/S Tadeusz Góra in the summer of 1943. Believe it or not, DB 605 was bloody big.

A while ago on the forum there was a lengthy inconclusive discussion on a gun camera photo. There were several voices voting for Ju 87, Fw 190D or even Ta 152.
Mind you, widely available films are those which went through selection, the best of. There are several, however, that the enemy cannot be identified without any doubt, and there is also one important factor. Those films could be shown in slow motion, and paused if necessary. Pilots had no such comfort, fought in adverse conditions, and had no time for lengthy considerations.

[Gizmo]

Note to victory No. 306. At the same time (15:42, i.e. 12 minutes later) Ltn. Heinz Ewald claimed "ŁaGG-5". Isn't he more likely a candidate for La-5F S/N: 39215187?

[HGabor]

Thanks Gizmo, what are the exact circumstances of his claim? Time, location, etc.?

Gabor

[Gizmo]

I was based on the most used files made by Tonny Wood.
Unfortunately, for this day there is no data as to the places of shooting down, but it looks like it's the same fight of 7. Staffel. There is also another candidate in the person of Hptm. Sturm, who claimed two La-5.

31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.18 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 935
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.23 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 936
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.26 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 937
31.10.44 Hptm. Heinrich Sturm 5./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.28 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 938
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 08.21 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Hptm. Erich Hartmann 7./JG 52 Yak-7 �� 15.30 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 15.37 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Heinz Ewald 7./JG 52 LaGG-5 �� 15.42 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.17 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -
31.10.44 Ltn. Peter Düttmann 6./JG 52 Il-2 m.H. �� 14.19 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -

[HGabor]

Gizmo, on October 31, 1944 the 5 VA, 14 GvIAD (177, 178, 179 GvIAPs) has lost two La-5s from 177 GvIAP:

Lavochkin La-5F, №39215187 (white '87'), engine: №6504058 - гв.к-н Мордухович Павел Яковлевич (№048366, MIA) "В 17:25 пара Мордухович-Абрамов на Н-2000 м встретили 2 ФВ-190 и 2 Ме-109. Мордухович атаковал пару ФВ, не замечая, что МЕ атаковали его. Абрамов, отбивая их Атаки, Абрамов вошел в облачность и потерял ведущего. Не видел и не слышал по радио." - 17:25 is Moscow time, 15:25 local. Mission flown in Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area. Time 15:30 (only 5 mins. diff.!) and area 98 799 in Hartmann's claim is exactly Kerekegyháza-N! You decide, whichever is closer in time and space...


Lavochkin La-5FN, №41210105 (white '05'), engine: №8212379 - гв.л-т Куншин Алексей Александрович (№048372, MIA) - "Свободная охота с разведкой Цеглед, Ясапати, Сольнок. 11:25 Штурмовали жд состав на дороге Цеглед-Сольнок, ведомый одновременно штурмовал автоколонну Цеглед-Сольнок. Ведомый утерял Куньшина, выходившего разворотом вправо и больше не видел. Через 5 минут полета ведомый наблюдал в этом районе очаг пожара, предположительно горел самолет."

The other Lavochkin division of 5 VA (279 IAD: 92, 192, 486 IAPs) suffered no permanent AC losses this day. Therefore any La-5 claim in the op. area of 5 VA that exceeds 2 planes should be considered overclaim.

See brief summary of both losses in 177 GvIAP diary on October 31, 1944.
Gabor

[keith A]

As you say Franek, no point in discussing it further, I am too old a hare to change my mind unless I have definitive proof and my comments on attribution linked to losses, (especially where the loss in no way resembles the claim) stand. Again we will have to agree to differ, life's too short .

Mistakes in identification do happen, but when they verge on the fantastic I go with what is credible, even if it's frustrating.

Have a happy new year

regards

Keith

[HGabor]

I am wondering if there is any record available on the strength of the German flight (No. of Bf 109s) during Hartmann's claims. This might help to narrow down the possibilities. Eg. on November 16, 1944 Koptelov's Yak-9D (5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, S/N: 2015370) was hit by 2 Bf 109s out of six. See in first list in this thread. Did Hartman fly in a group of 6 (or so) Bf 109 this time? Or he just usually flew in recce. pairs? If so, he just had one witness...etc. Narrative report:

"14:20 (Moscow time) 4 Як Н-3000 м при подходе к району патрулирования севернее Ясберень, атаковаы 2-мя Ме-109 снизу в лоб из группы в 6 Ме-109. Приняли лобовую атаку, после чего развернулись на 180 гр и стали преследовать группу Ме-109. После атаки мотор задымил, стали ррваться снаряды. Коптелов развернулся и с курсом 90 гр пошел на свою территорию по реке Тисса. ??12 км восточнее Яскишер на Н-800 м самолет загорелся?? выпрыгнул из горящего самолета на парашюте. Самолет сгорел, летчик прибыл в часть 18.11.44."

(See brief loss entry for Koptelov.)
Thanks, - and Happy New Year!
Gabor

[Dan History]

Thank you for continuing to share your excellent ressearch with us, Gabor.

From my own experience, the reports by all sides concerning the size of enemy formations encountered can be very inaccurate, so I wouldn't necessarily trust that report that six 109s were present, double counting by pilots is a possibility.

As I mentioned in a message to you, it is really writing up some of your research as an article.

Happy New Year!

Dan

[HGabor]

Thanks Dan, but in research I hate time pressure, so if I decide to write an article, I would rather complete it first, before contacting any publisher. But back to Hartmann. On November 17, 1944 he claimed an Boston III bomber:

316: 17.11.1944 – 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m

In November, 1944 the soviets were still testing the defense of the Hungarian capital, Budapest. On November 4, 1944 eg. a mixed soviet tank-group reached the -SE suburbs of the city and got completely destroyed. 8 SU-76M of 1509 САП, 1 IS-2 heavy tank of 30 Гв.ОТТП and 3-4 T-34 of 39 Гв.ТП burned out at Pestszentimre ('Pest-St. Emeric') - Gyál in a well organized ambush. Learning the lesson, the soviets decided to keep a little break and gather more forces before starting the actual battle for the city.

The 5th Air Army also flew recce. missions over the City. As part of this, on November 17, 1944 small groups of 5 VA, 218 BAD A-20G Bostons bombed the southern area of Budapest. As discussed earlier, the 453 BAP lost 2 Bostons this day, one in combat mission, one in an accident. These were the only Boston losses of the 5 VA on November 17, 1944. The one lost in combat (A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53956) from a group of 3 Bostons became Capt. Pottyondy László, Hungarian ace's (102/2. Sq.) confirmed victory. 6 Bf 109s attacked the plane, including the pair of friends: Hartmann and Pottyondy, shooting out its RIGHT engine (radial R-2600-23, S/N: 42-174979). Both the Hungarian and the soviet reports agree in this detail! The bomber crashlanded and burned. Only 2 crewmen returned to their lines (Pilot Danielyan, and gunner Kopilov), the other 2 (Rizhkov and Vigovskii) died in the fighter-fire.

But: Other Bostons also reported dogfights in the Budapest-S area! Perhaps one of these was attacked and claimed by Hartmann. But if so, it was an overclaim:

While leaving the target at 2600 m, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Maj. Evgenii Efimovich Stroganov (under 15-20 degree angle) was attacked by 2 Bf 109s. Radioman-air gunner, Sgt. Alexei Ermolaevich Chernikov claimed a Bf 109 shot down.

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, 3rd Sq. A-20G Boston, piloted by Capt. Pavel Arsentevich Zhalibo (к-н Жалибо Павел Арсентьевич, Sq. commander (№046738)) was attacked by 9 Bf 109 under ~25-30 degree angle. All attack were repelled by the gunners, but during the last strike the plane was slightly damaged. (AC number is unknown, but on January 2, 1945 Zhalibo was killed in A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54186, so perhaps he flew the same plane this time too. Capt. Zhalibo (and his crew), by the way, was a real hero. While taking off from Debrecen airfield towards the city for another Budapest mission, one of their engines stopped. Instead of releasing their bomb-load on civilians and the city, at low altitude, he tried to return to their airfield with the fully loaded bomber, flying on only one engine. They reached the airfield OK, but at landing their bomb-load went off and the whole crew lost their lives.)

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Ml.Lt. Petr Mihailovich Kovzalov, flight-commander was attacked by 4 Bf 109s without any result. They were flying recce-bombing mission in the Dunaföldvár-Budapest-S area.

Gabor

[Christer Bergström]

Hi Gabor, excellent research!

Do you get your info from Pamyat Naroda, or do you do own research in the TsAMO files?

Have you seen my recently published Black Cross/Red Star, Volume 4?

https://vaktelforlag.se/produkt/blac...ban-1942-1943/

Happy New Year & all the best,

Christer Bergström