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Old 25th March 2007, 19:41
Junkers Junkers is offline
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Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944


Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

Hello,

I am looking for information about a hitherto unknown prototype of a delta-shaped plane which must have been tested under German supervision during WWII.

Here the eye-witness report of a soldier who had seen such a vehicle in flight:

At the end of May, beginning June 1944 I was posted in the area of the French channel coast at a V-1 base southeast of Lisieux near Caen in France. Here I have seen some days after the Allied invasion at a single day two times an unknown rocket fighter comming in from easterly direction (Paris), flying to the front line (Caen) in appr. 500 meters altitude. At first I noticed the aircraft from far distances because of its prominent exhaust stream and its unusual noise. The speed was not very fast.

Some days later a British “Mosquito“ “wooden wonder“ bomber or reconnaisance aircraft circled above Lisieux, as from the same direction (Paris) the rocket fighter appeared again. I could observe that the Mosquito tried to get behind the rocket aircraft, but its pilot noticed the maneuver and suddenly, the mystery fighter accelerated and vanished in the direction of Caen.

Again some days later at 10 – 11.00 a.m., the sky was at this time without any clouds, from the same direction the rocket craft showed up again. The speed was remarkably low and because the craft has flown so low I could see the face of the pilot, who seemed to watch our position.

This time I could see some more details: a delta-shaped flying wing. During the flypast of the aircraft I could see a tube like nozzle with a strong exhaust jet.




In July 15, 1953 the French engineer Michel Wibault, assignor to Vibrane Corporation, N.Y. filed the U.S.-Patent-No. 2,807,428. The Patent was granted 24 September 1957 about an “Aircraft with Enclosed Rotor“.

The circular shaped “Gyroter” most probably went to Germany, if Peenemuende Prag or Wiener-Neustadt or all three of them.

The delta-shaped airplane could have seen the witness over Caen in 1944!

After the First World War Michel Wibault founded the “Societe des Avions Michel Wibault“ near Paris, France. He designed several fighter and transport aircraft out of Duraluminium, mostly monoplanes instead of biplanes which were still common place in the 1920-40th.

In 1922 Wibault became a consultant for the British Vickers aircraft company. Links to this English aircraft company he apparently maintained over years. During the second world war Wibault emmigrated to the United States and worked in the aviation industry, also for Republic Aviation. The chief engineer of Republic was Alexander Kartveli, born in the Soviet Republic of Georgia. Kartveli obtained an enginerical degree in Paris and had worked for several French companies, including Wibault´s company, before he went to the U.S. in the late 1920s.

- Who has information about the Societe des Avions Michel Wibault and what the company has done during WWII?
- Who else from Germany was involved with this company, perhaps Dr. Lippisch and his LFW, Vienna which was deeply involved in constructing and testing unconentional aircraft?
- Who has more information about Alexander M Lippisch (besides the official archive) and his involvment with other agencies like Peenemuende, Riva del Garda in Italy and other R&D institudes, developing unconventional aircraft with different propulsion means?

There is little information about what Michel Wibault excactly has done during the 1945-55 period working for U.S. aviation companies. But in summer 1953 he suddenly filed a.m. U.S. patent under the name “Vibrane Corporation“ for a “Gyropter“.

Two airline pilots saw on March 20 1950 a circular-shaped vehicle which could have been a further developed Gyropter as an impeller aircraft. The Look magazin published in the 1950s a drawing of a circular impeller aircraft designed by Republic Aircraft.

- Was M. Wibault involved in this design? Had Wibault and Republic still contact to German engineers who were involved in further developing Wibault´s Gyropter during WWII? The Republic saucer could have stood in competition to the Avro design by John Frost (not the Avrocar).

If the Yellowstone sighting of 1947 of several unconventional aircraft, one was torn into halves, probably because the big impeller jet-engine exploded, were Republic or Avro aircraft or both is unclear.

- Who has information about special circular impeller aircraft built after the war in the USA and what the Republic Aircraft company had to do with this?

Junkers
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  #2  
Old 25th March 2007, 19:49
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

Germans were captured Payen delta shaped airplane. There is also images in German insignia. Maybe this could be mystery plane.
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Old 25th March 2007, 21:24
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

Here is information about Wibault's post-war work for the British:

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avav81.html


The subject of experimental delta shaped aircraft is not comprehensively covered in any one book. However, more information about post-war disc aircraft research and construction by the Americans has surfaced. A key figure was one Alfred Loedding who came from an immigrant German family and spoke fluent German. "Amongst Loedding's close personal friends were some of the world's top scientists, who included Robert Goddard, Alexander Lippisch and Theodore von Karman. Both Loedding and von Karman were heavily involved with the study and assessment of captured German military aviation technology..." Loeeding worked for T-2 Technical Intelligence at Wright Field (he also worked at T-3 Engineering). A photo of his little known Discplane has been published.

In the early 1950s, the USAF contracted with the A.V. Roe Company of Canada to build a jet powered disc aircraft. The Avrocar was a cover for the sophisticated Project Silver Bug. Its official designation was Project 1794. This was superseded by an improved version under the designations PV.704, then Project 1794 (again) and finally, Weapons System 606A (Supersonic Apllication) which was also the designation given to the Avrocar. The Canadian government also contributed funding. In the early 1960s, AVRO ceased operations and personnel were recruited by American contractors and NASA. There is also the politically motivated cancelling of the AVRO CF-105 Arrow to consider.

Source: Flying Saucer Aircraft by Bill Rose, published by Midland Publishing in the UK. It also covers some designs by Wibault and the disc built by Rene Couzinet (Aerodyne) in France which was begun in the early 1950s and patented in 1955. Photos of the 29 ft (8.84 m) model are shown.




Ed
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Old 26th March 2007, 09:06
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

I confirm what Pilot say...

it should have been captured Payen Pa 22/2. Have a look here:

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...fe/Pa22_01.jpg

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...fe/Pa22_02.jpg

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...fe/Pa22_03.jpg

http://skyraider.allaboutwarfare.com...fe/Pa22_04.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4732/pa22fr016pb.jpg

(only links supplied as I don't know if there are copyright issues...)
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Old 26th March 2007, 09:16
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

Hi guys

Shape-wise, fine - but it doesn't quite fit the desciption of a "rocket fighter" per the German witness.

Cheers
Brian
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Old 26th March 2007, 09:36
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

Was the term "delta" in use for wings in 1944? I don't think so.
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Old 26th March 2007, 16:04
Paul E. Paul E. is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

If I had to choose one candidate for being this reported aircraft I'd say it was likely a Messerschmitt 163 Komet. It was not, strictly speaking, a delta wing but the reporter may not have accurately described it.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/28...163/me163.html

Paul
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Old 27th March 2007, 20:51
Junkers Junkers is offline
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Re: Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944

The Payen never flew in German service or as test aircraft. It was stationed in the south of France while the incident with the unknown delta-plane was at the Normandy coast in northern France.

The Gyropter had most probably flight characteristics similar to a helicopter therefore the witness is not wrong when stating that the vehicle flew very slowly.

Wibault´s delta airplane had rotor arms in the middle of of the fuselage and at the ends small jets or jet-outlets like some small post-war helicopters ejecting hot exhaust gases or simply hot air. So this princlible was already used in Wibault´s delta craft which had an additional jet-engine at the rear, small tube, which enabled the vehicle to accelerate and dash away.

Junkers

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