Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

[Nokose]

On the 17Oct44 the Groupie Normandie came to the rescue of a group of Pe-2 of the 135 GBAP east of Gumbinnen that had just bombed the R.R. station at Trakhenen. Sous Lt Charles Miquel and Sous Lt Maurice Challe shot down two Bf-109's. Does anyone know the times that they shot them down and if it was from JG52? I don't know if JG51 was flying any Bf-109's at that time.
Best Regards,
Michael

[Frank Olynyk]

The time was 1200 according to the Journal de Marche, page 117. Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen, while Miquel's was 5 km S of Goumbinnen. I have no idea of the German unit involved.

Frank.

[David P. Williams]

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure whether this is just a coincidence but Oberleutnant Toni Hafner of 8.JG 51 (Knight's Cross with Oak leaves) was shot down that day in East Prussia near to Schweizersfelde. He was flying Bf 109G-6 442013 Black 1.
Now talking to Horst Petzschler about this incident he has always insisted that it was elements from Groupie Normandie that were responsible for shooting Hafner down. I have tried to locate Schweizersfelde but have been unable to do so, although i know exactly where Gumbinnen is in East Prussia. Is it a coincidence, i don't know but worth thinking about. Hope it helps.

[Nokose]

Thanks for the replies. I can't find anything in Tony Woods Lists to match the 12:00 time frame even it it was using Moscow time. The source I read stated that M.Lt Vasilli Koval's Pe-2 went down after the French pilots arrived. Kovals died but his crew bailed. Anton Hafner shot down a Pe-2 in that area at 04:47 and a Yak-7 at 09:55. I know the claims at Tony woods list aren't complete. The 09.55 would be close using Berlin time compared to Moscow time. The source I read didn't give a time for the bomber raid just that they made the rescue.
Thanks again,
Michael

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Nokose!
I am with the book of Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt published by Éditions Heimdal in France. On pg 51 we do have a fairly good account of the activities of Normandie-Niemen on 17th October:
The first mission took place around 9:00h. Sky 4/5 covered. Cmdt. Pouyade led 31 Yak 3 + 2 Yak 9 to escort 54 Pe-2 + 18 A-20 Boston to an area around Eydtkunnen ( north of Goritten, some 30km ESE of Stalluponen ). Schoendorff got a Bf 109 ( I will only quote the Bf 109 claims, ok ? )
Around 12:00h Maurice Challe and Miquel got one Bf 109 apiece
It seems that JG 51 los 3 young new pilots and Oblt Anton Hafner - which, according to the book ( pg.53 ) hit a tree while chasing a Yak 9, very close to Schweizerfelde ( this one I did not find on the map ).
I do hope this will add a bit more to the picture. So, it seems Hafner was involved on the afternoon mission of Normandie-Niemen.

Friendly yours

Adriano

[Nokose]

Adriano, Thanks for your reply. Did Groupie Normandie suffer any losses in planes (loss or damaged during this day)? Schweizersfelde is the next location to the southwest of Puspern.
Thanks again,
Michael

[Steve49]

According to 'French Eagles, Soviet Heroes' by J.D Clarke the two Bf109's shot down by Challe and Miquel were claimed in the Goumbinnen region during a patrol launched at 12.30.

One aircraft (flown by Aspirant Jean Emonet) was shotdown during a mission (launched at 09.20) to escort three groups of Pe2's. Two aircraft (flown by Aspirnat Miquel Lorillon and Aspirnat Gael Taburet) are noted as being damaged during the day, though it is not clear during which of the regiments clashes this occured.

Regards

Steve Pegge

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by David P. Williams

... Oberleutnant Toni Hafner of 8.JG 51 (Knight's Cross with Oak leaves) was shot down that day ...

As Adriano Baumgartner already stated in this thread, Mr. Hafner was not shot down but died due to hitting the ground (a tree?) during a lowlevel-dogfight.

Concerning JG52: Yes, they were in the area. There even exists a PK-report about some fights with Yak-3's. If I find it, I'll post some details.

[Nokose]

Groupe Normandie had six Yak-3's up on patrol at 14:00 (Moscow) in the area of Gumbinnen when they saw 40 bomb laden FW190's approaching the lines. They moved into position and attacked. The 18 GIAP also attacked this formation.
Sous Lt Roger Sauvage claimed 1 FW190 and 1 probable FW190
Lt Col. Pierre Pouyade FW190 Probable
Sous Lt Pierre Lorillon 2 FW190
Have no information on who the other three pilots.
18 GIAP
Kapt Nikolai Grigoyevich Pinchuk FW190
St.Lt. Vladimir Alexandrovich Balandin FW190
St. Lt. Grigorii Prokopyevich Repikhov FW190
Alexei A. Kalyuzhnyi FW190
Kapt Nikolai Nikitovich Danilenko FW190
Lt Nikolai Agalakov and Zakhariya Gogotoevich Margoev each chased a FW190 into the ground.
Which SG unit from the Luftwaffe was operating in this area and what were their losses?

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Groupe Normandie had six Yak-3's up on patrol at 14:00 (Moscow) in the area of Gumbinnen when they saw 40 bomb laden FW190's approaching the lines. They moved into position and attacked. The 18 GIAP also attacked this formation.
Sous Lt Roger Sauvage claimed 1 FW190 and 1 probable FW190
Lt Col. Pierre Pouyade FW190 Probable
Sous Lt Pierre Lorillon 2 FW190
Have no information on who the other three pilots.
18 GIAP
Kapt Nikolai Grigoyevich Pinchuk FW190
St.Lt. Vladimir Alexandrovich Balandin FW190
St. Lt. Grigorii Prokopyevich Repikhov FW190
Alexei A. Kalyuzhnyi FW190
Kapt Nikolai Nikitovich Danilenko FW190
Lt Nikolai Agalakov and Zakhariya Gogotoevich Margoev each chased a FW190 into the ground.
Which SG unit from the Luftwaffe was operating in this area and what were their losses?

Hello everyone.

Soviet reports give a different version than the one given in posterity:

Журнал боевых действий 303 иад
Описывает период с 01.10.1944 по 31.10.1944 г.

в 12.35 на прикритие наземных войск в районе шталлупенен по вызову с КП командира дивизии вылетело 8 Як-3 1 ОИАП "НОРМАНДИЯ". В ройоне патрулованни на высоте 150 метров летчик встретиля 12 фв-190, с которыми вступили в бой, в результате во здушного боя капитан КЮО сбил 2 фв-190, мл-лт МАРКИ,ДЕ-ШАНЕ, ДЕ-САНФАЛЬ, САВАЖ сбили по одому фв-190


"Combat log 303 iad. Describes the period from 10/01/1944 to 10/31/1944.

at 12.35 pm, 8 Yak-3 1 OIAP "NORMANDIA" flew out on a call from the command post of the division commander to cover ground troops in the shtallupenen area. In the swarm of patrols at an altitude of 150 meters, the pilot met 12 fv-190s, with which they entered the battle, as a result, in an aerial battle, the captain of the KYuO shot down 2 fv-190s, jr-lt MARKS, DE-CHANET, DE-SANFAL, SAVAGE were shot down one at a time fv-190 ".

This once again illustrates the narrative bias, the emphasis of the "Journal de marche" published in 1946. The editor was not objective and transformed the facts to create a "chanson de geste".

Soviet reports give 16 victories (13 FW-190 and 3 Me-109) for the Normandie-Niemen to date.

Only 12 will be validated after wars. That day -3.5 victories are canceled at CUFFAUT and - 0.5 at Sauvage who must share it with Cuffaut.
Two other pilots saw their victories go from certain for the Soviets to probable for the French, who subsequently credited Lorillion with 2 victories.

If indeed Captain CUFFAUT loses today 3 victories following his "internal trial" for "overcleaming". However, he should not be stigmatized, he is not the only one in this case. He is just the only one denounced by "Yves COURRIERE".

The overclaiming on October 16 and 17 is due to the fact that the majority of the NN pilots were inexperienced and for many it fell from their first fight. Many equated the evasive dive of a plane he had hit with total destruction.

The subject alone would deserve a post, dealing with the real level of reinforcement pilots, a real analysis of the activity of the NN for the year 1944. I will spoil it a bit: the year 1945 is the most interesting.