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  #31  
Old 9th June 2016, 08:17
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Hi Guys

At least five claims for three loses, but Meimberg's claims are generally accurate enough not to doubt him, yet as a whole you can always find JG 2's claims not adding-up, whereas JG 26's add-up nicely.

Regards

Johannes
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  #32  
Old 9th June 2016, 19:47
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Re: Hans Hahn

Looked at the 07 Sep 40 from 18:00-18:55 (17:00-17:55 British). Don Caldwell lists JG 26 tangled with the 603 Sqn but at least one 603 Sqn Spitfire went down in the area of the Thames Estuary at 17:39 which is the area of JG 2's engagement. I removed RAF losses outside of that area and German claims as much as possible considering the general locations such as "London".

RAF losses:
242 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
257 Sqn Hurricane 17:30 Thames Estuary
257 Sqn Hurricane 17:30 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
603 Sqn Spitfire 17:39 Thames Estuary

German claims in that area:
Obfw. Erich Rudorffer 2/JG 2 Spitfire 18:30 Thames Estuary
Spitfire 18:40 ?
Spitfire 18:43 ?
Oblt. Siegfried Bethke 2/JG 2 Hurricane 18:42 eastern edge of London
Obfw. Hans Tilly 3/JG 2 Hurricane 18:50 Thames Estuary
Lt. Karl-Heinz Dudeck Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 18:20 ?
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 18:25 Gillingham
Oblt. Helmut Wick 6/JG 2 Spitfire 18:25 ?
Obfw. Franz Willinger 8/JG 2 Spitfire 18:25 ?
Fw Kurt Goltzch 8/JG 2 Spitfire 18:26 ?
Fw Karl Ebert 8/JG 2 Spitfire ? hrs London area (Not confirmed)
Obfw Hans Klee 7/JG 2 Spitfire 18:45 Themsemüdung
Lt. Franz Beyer 8/JG 2 Hurricane 18:10 ?
Oblt. Walter Adolph 8/JG 27 Spitfire 18:25 south of Stanford

So in that area for six Hurricanes and one Spitfire there are German claims for nine Spitfires (& 0ne unconfirmed) and six Hurricanes. Far to many claims to confirm Hahn's Hurricane unless you drop the Spitfire claims which is impossible to do since everyone wanted to claim that they beat a Spitfire. So possibly a shared, escaped and always possible shot down for Hahn.
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  #33  
Old 9th June 2016, 21:14
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Re: Hans Hahn

Hans Hahn lists only the location for the 08 Sep 1940 on claiming his Hurricane. So I used only the times of 13:00-13:42 (12:00 - 12:42 British).

German Claims:
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane ?hrs London
Obfw. Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Hurricnae 13:15 ?
Oblt. Helmut Wick 6/JG 2 Hurricane 13:20 ?
Hurricnae 13:30 ?
Hurricnae 13:40 ?
Fw. Erwin Kortlepel 4/JG 3 Hurricnae 13:30 S. of London
Lt. Heinz Bär 1/JG 51 Spitfire 13:20 ?
Oblt. Richard Leppla 3/JG 51 Spitfire 13:20 ?
Oblt. Ignaz Prestrle 2/JG 53 Hurricane 13:25 ?
Oblt Franz Götz 7/JG 53 Hurricane 13:25

RAF losses
41 Sqn Spitfire 12:15 off Dover
46 Sqn Hurricane 12:35 Maidstone
46 Sqn Hurricnae 12:30 off Isle of Sheppey
46 sqn Hurricane 12:30 off Isle of Sheppey
605 Sqn Hurricane 12:30 near Tunbridge

So for four Hurricanes and one Spitfire lost there were eight Hurricanes and two Spitfires claimed by German pilots for this period. So again very bad odds that he actually shot down his Hurricane.

Last edited by Nokose; 9th June 2016 at 21:15. Reason: Changed Kortlepel's unit
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  #34  
Old 10th June 2016, 07:18
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Hi Guys

As bad as Hahn was Wick, but JG 51 and especially JG 53 were honest units. So who was the best during the battle of Britain, we have the big three Wick, Galland, Molders..........well you can dis-credit Wick for a start. Though my heart says Molders, and he was the better leader, Galland was absolutely honest, and the best I think, and deservedly so for his honesty alone. Slightly later I would say Müncheberg was best.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S though he had many of his claims unconfirmed I would put Joppien above Wick and Hahn!
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  #35  
Old 10th June 2016, 09:27
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Galland was absolutely honest, and the best I think, and deservedly so for his honesty alone.
I am personally very cautious of calling anyone "absolutely honest" because absolutely sounds like you would credit them to the point where one would rule out the validity of other pilots' claims.... Here's what I mean when it comes to Galland:

14.6.40/1728 Blenheim 10km S of Evreux. R3693 of 40 sqn. P/O Lewis and Sgt. Currie both believed POW, Sgt. S W Johnson KIA (believed damaged by Galland and finished off by Blume, so one or the other overclaimed)

25.7.40/1617 Spitfire Dover Harbour. R6707 of 'B' Flight, 54 sqn. F/L Basil Hugh "Wonky" Way, KIA. (Some sources credit Galland with shooting down Sub-Lt (A) Francis Dawson-Paul). Fw. Karl Schmid of 1/JG 51 claimed around the same time and place. We can't just assume Galland got this one and arbitrarily rule out Schmid.

15.8.40/1255 Spitfire 10km E of Dover-Folkestone. Galland is credited by some sources with shooting down Al Deere. Bergstroem says this was N3097 of 54 sqn, Sgt. Norman A Lawrence (who is also credited to Ebbighausen, so again, who was right and who was wrong with this claim?)

15.9.40/1530 Hurricane. Galland and Horten claim their well known victories over the Czech pilots Hubacek and Hess... ....but can you really rule out claims by pilots such as Helmut Bennemann?

20.9.40/1205 Same again: did Hahn or Galland shoot down N3203 of 'B' flight, 222 "Natal" sqn. P/O Herbert Laurence Whitbread, KIA or Hurricane V6722 of 605 sqn. P/O W J Glowacki, damaged but returned unhurt or even K9993 of P/O William R Assheton. I don't think any one of us can quite determine that....

30.10.40/1730 & 1740, 2 x Spitfires of 41 sqn. P7282 of P/O G G F Draper WIA, aircraft written off plus P7375 of Sgt. Leonard Arthur Garvey KIA. Johannes, please tell me you have considered the possibility that Lt. Otto Grote and Gefr. Leopold Masterer might also have downed these two British pilots. And again, where does it say that we have the absolute right to decide either way...?

17.11.40/1020 Again, another famous one: Galland is credited with the Hurricane N2342 of 257 "Burma" sqn. Sgt. Bernard Henson, KIA but again, who can say that Sprick's Spitfire claim isn't doubling up on this? (I acknowledge that 66 sqn had one damaged around this time so the best we can do is the benefit of the doubt and that is by no means "absolute honesty")

28.11.40/1540 Galland downed V6729, tail end charlie of 249 sqn. P/O P H V Wells, baled out burned

21.10.41/1816-1817 Galland and Fast claimed Spitfires. 611 "West Lancashire" sqn. Two losses: W3515 of P/O N J Smith and W3327 "Horsham and District" of P/O J F Reeves both KIA. Was said to have been a collision between the two, but Galland and Fast claimed them anyway. I guess they can actually count as legitimate victories, but some purists might view it differently...
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  #36  
Old 10th June 2016, 19:42
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Re: Hans Hahn

11 Sep 1940
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 16:15 Staplehurst

Looked at the RAF losses for 15:00-15:30 (British) in the area of his claim and found none. All the losses during that time were in the 46 Sqn with a Hurricane 15:30 near Bodiam, Hurricane 15:30 Thames Estuary, Hurricane 15:40 near Staple Cross, Kent. So nothing post-war reality to confirm his claim.
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  #37  
Old 10th June 2016, 21:03
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Re: Hans Hahn

15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.
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  #38  
Old 10th June 2016, 22:00
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Re: Hans Hahn

20 sep 1940 12:00-12:40 (11:00-11:40 British)
On checking the RAF losses it was possible to separate the two Spitfires of the 92 Sqn because they were lost in the Dungeness area which had Werner Mödlers claiming two and III/JG 53 claiming two Spitfires during that time. So that left the following other RAF losses during the time of Hahn.
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:15 Rochester
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:35 Thames Estuary
222 Sqn Spitfire unk time and location crash-landed damaged by Bf 109
253 Sqn Hurricane 11:30 Kent

German Claims:
Oblt. Johann Schmid 1/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 12:15 no location
Fw. Alfred Heckmann 5/JG 3 Spitfire 12:20 south of London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Spitfire 12:05 south of Hornchurch
Hptm. Johannes Seifer 3/JG 26 Hurricane 12:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 12:37 Maidstone
Obfw. Heinrich Gottlob 6/JG 26 Hurricane 12:15 London
Gefr. Viktor Gruber 8/JG 27 Hurricane 12:20 souteast of London.

Looking at the location of the 222 Sqn Hurricane at 11:25 at the Thames Estuary it would appear to be Hptm Seifer even though he lists a Hurricane. That would leave the other three among the rest of the claims. Very bad odds that Hahn's claim could be an actual reality but possibly be an overclaim, shared or escaped.
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  #39  
Old 11th June 2016, 01:32
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.
Hi,

II./J.G. 2 was flying from Mardyck escorting bombers to east London between 14:35 and 16:15, and was not in the Portsmouth area (source: Hannes Flugbuch).

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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  #40  
Old 11th June 2016, 03:21
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Re: Hans Hahn

Thank you Andrew. I checked again and found that Thorn Island on the Thames River is also called Thorney Island which I believe is near the Royal Palace. Still that doesn't provide help with any better odds in his claim as for the RAF only the following appear.
1 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 damaged in air battle with He 111
92 Sqn Spitfire 14:50 west of Ashford
249 Sqn Hurricane 14:35 West Malling in air battle with He 111
302 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 North Weald doesn't give if fighter or bomber in shoot down
303 Sqn Hurricane ? hrs over Dartford with Bf 109
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
504 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 near Dartford

So here is the German claims outside of the above listed II/JG 2 claims.
Oblt Jerbert Ihlefeld 2(J)/LG 2 Spitfire 15:30 London
(I(J)/LG 2 made three more claims for Spitfires during the day with no names, times & locations)
(Also Stab and I/JG 3 made three Hurricane and two Spitire claims London with no times)
Oblt. Heinrich Sannrmann Stab II/JG 3 Sptfire 15:40 London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Oblt. Walter Horten Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 "
Oblt Fritz Losigkeit 2/JG 26 Spitfire 15:40 southeast London
Obfw Walter Meyer 5/JG 26 Spitfire 15:35 London
(6/JG 27 had one unconfirmed Spitfire SE of London with no time, Stab/JG 51 had a Spitfire with no time and location and I/JG 51 had three Sitfires with no times and location)
Lt. Fritz Stendel 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:28 no location
Spitfire 15:36 "
Fw Gustav Küll 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Uffz Karl Willius 8/JG 51 Spitfire 15:36 no location
(III/JG 51 had two Spitfires with no times and location. Also a Hurricane with the location of Tonbridge)
Oblt Franz Hahn 2/JG 77 Spitfire 15:35 no location
Oblt Hans-Karl Keitel 1/JG 77 Spitfire 15:40 "
Oblt Karl-Heinz Leesmann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt Helmut Bennemann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:30 southern London
Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt. Günther Büsgen 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:32 no location
Oskar Strack 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Oblt Robert Göbel 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 Themsemündung
Uffz Heinrich Kooerschläger 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 NW London
Fw Walter Scholz 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 10 km south of London
Oblt Ignaz Prestele 2/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 10 km " "
Lt Wolfgang Tonne 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 "
Uffz Heinrich Rühl 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:58 south London
Oblt Jakob Stoll 9/JG 63 Spitfire 15:33 no location
Lt Erich Schmidt 9/JG 53 Spitfire 15:36 " "
Oblt Franz Götz 9/JG 53 Hurricane 15:40 " "
Gefr Hans Swietlik 13(Z)/LG 1 Spitfire 15:10 " "
Obfw Heinz Langenberg 5/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:25
Lt. Werner Pistor Stab II/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:45 10 km SE London

Okay with the all these claims and only six Hurricanes and one Spitfire lost (also the damaged Hurricane) the Spitfire of Hahn's is very unlikely. So the 15 Sep 1940 was not a good day.
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