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  #41  
Old 11th June 2016, 04:02
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Thank you Andrew. I checked again and found that Thorn Island on the Thames River is also called Thorney Island which I believe is near the Royal Palace. Still that doesn't provide help with any better odds in his claim as for the RAF only the following appear.
Hi Nokose, just for clarification, there are two Thorney Islands. Check out Wikipedia's disambiguation page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorney_Island

The other Thorney Island had a RAF Coastal command base which is a fact that might cause a confusion here.

Nick
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  #42  
Old 11th June 2016, 20:29
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Re: Hans Hahn

Thanks for the link Nick but it seems none of the RAF losses came down in his area.

23 Sep 1940 10:00-1050 (09:00-09:50 British)
Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 10:30 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 10:30 London

I(J)/LG 2 claimed five Spitfire at Dover during this time period
Adolf Galland Stab II/JG 26 claimed two Hurricanes at 10:45 north of Rochester

RAF losses;
257 Sqn Hurricane I (P2960) Sgt D.J. Aslin (WIA) over the Thames Estuary at 09:50.

The last two "Matching" German claims for this time period and location.
Gefr. Helmut Hornatscheck 9/JG 26 Spitfire 10:45 Themsemündung
Lt. Gustav Sprick 8/JG 26 Spitfire 10:35 Themsemündung
These two could have shared but given the time it is more then likely Hornatscheck for his 1st victory.

To be fair it would probably take some one sitting down and reading all the after action combat reports (RAF since they survived) to determined who was involved along with how much damage was done. RAF claims during this period I've read didn't always match German losses. Still no post-war confirmation for Hahn's claim for this day.
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  #43  
Old 13th June 2016, 21:33
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Re: Hans Hahn

On going through Norman L R Franks book for this day there is some strange times for the loss of RAF fighters which don't match any of the times for the claims made by German pilots. German Summer time did not end for 1940 until Nov 1942 on the change back. Is there missing claims from Tony Woods list for this daylisted in Prien's JFV series?

Hptm Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 13:35 Southampton
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 13:35 Southhampton
Obfw. Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Spitfire 13:39 Southampton
Spitfire 13:42 Southampton

Nick, you listed for this day 609 Sqn Spitfires of F/O John C Dundas and P/O Noel Le Chevalier Agazarian as being damaged so that is the closes possible for Hahn's. Unless someone else has better information. So no actual victory this day.
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  #44  
Old 13th June 2016, 21:57
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Re: Hans Hahn

For the 6 Nov 1940 Frank's book lists only the following RAF losses which he gives no times but for the most part gives the credit to Maj Helmut Wick Stab/JG2 for some reason.
145 Sqn Hurricane I P/O JK Haire (KIA) time PM, over Isle of Wight (to Wick)
145 Sqn Hurricane I Sgt J Weber, same as above
213 Sqn Hurricane I Sgt HH Adair (KIA) time PM over Portsmouth (to Wick)
238 Sqn Hurricane I P/O J Tillett (KIA) time PM, over Fareham (he stated only JG 2)

Oblt. Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Hurricane 15:50 east of Southhampton

So any comments with more information would be interesting on this one as Wick claimed five fighters, Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 two Hurricanes (at Southampton at 15:35 & 15:37) and Obfw. Siegfried Schnell of 4/JG 2 claimed a Hurricane 1340 to the east of Southampton.
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  #45  
Old 14th June 2016, 19:49
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Re: Hans Hahn

24 June 1941 (Circus 21)
Hptm. Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 21:00 NW Calais

RAF losses:
603 Sqn Spitfire
603 Sqn Spitfire damaged and forced landed at Walmer
611 Sqn Spitfire

German claims during this raid were three Spitfires by JG 26 and ten Spitfires by JG 2 (including Hahn). So a very unlikely victory with all this overclaiming.
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  #46  
Old 14th June 2016, 20:08
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Re: Hans Hahn

25 Jun 1941 (Circus 23)
I have very little on Circus 23 but on this one the chances of Hahn's actually scoring a victory are a lot better.
German Claims:
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab 2/JG 2 Spitfire 16:30 NE Boulogne (No witness)
Hptm Wilhelm Balthasar Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 16:45 no location
Lt Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Spitfire 16:32 no location
Spitfire 16:40 no location
Lt. Günther Behrendt 4/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35 no location
Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 16:31 Marquise
Lt. Egon Mayer 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35
Lt. Walter Höhler 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35
Obfw Rudolf Krull 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:40
Lt Johannes Schmidt 3/JG 26 Spitfire 16:45 10 km north of Dünkirchen
Oblt Walter Schneider 6/JG 26 Spitfire 16:40 south of "

RAF losses:
54 Sqn Spitfire (three)
303 Sqn Spitfire
610 Sqn Spitfire and Sgt Davies Spitfire damaged and he was WIA.
616 Sqn Spitfire (two over St. Omar)
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  #47  
Old 15th June 2016, 20:04
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Re: Hans Hahn

26 Jun 1941
I have very little again on Circus 24 for this day but there is only three RAF losses with no location and time of losses

RAF losses:
92 Sqn Spitfire (POW) Sweep
145 Sqn Spitfire (POW) Circus 24
603 Sqn Spitfire P/O C A Newman (KIA) Sweep

German claims;
Lt. Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Spitfire 11:42 no location
Fw. Edgar Brandt 4/JG2 Spitfire 11:43 no location
Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz 5/JG 2 Spitfire no location
Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 11:35 Dunkirk
Lt. Horst Sternberg 5/JG 26 Spitfire 11:50 Dunkirk
Hptm Walter Adolph Stab II/JG 26 Spitfire 11:55 Mardyck

So six claims for Spitfires and three losses again is hard to determine without locations and times of the RAF losses.
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  #48  
Old 15th June 2016, 20:44
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Re: Hans Hahn

02 Jul 1941
Circus 29 to Lille

RAF escort losses:
303 Sqn Spitfire S/L M. Wojciechowski (KIA) over the channel
303 Sqn Spitfire (pilot rescued) over the channel
303 Sqn Spitfire damaged returned to England

On looking at the locations of the German claims at least one possibly can be linked:
Oblt Walter Schneider 6/JG 26 Spitfire 12:55 Mardyck

RAF sweep losses:
74 Sqn Spitfire (POW)
74 Sqn Spitfire (POW) near St Omer

Circus 29 losses:
71 Sqn Hurricane (linked to Pingel JG 26)
308 Sqn Spitfire F/L E.S. Kawnik (KIA)
308 Sqn Spitfire Sgt. P. Kowala (POW)
308 Sqn Spitfire damaged

German claims:
Obfw. Rudof Täschner 1/JG 2 Spitfire 12:45 no location
Oblt. Jürgen Hepe 4/JG 2 Spitfire 12:55 no location
Lt Bruno Stolle 8/JG 2 Spitfire 12:35 west of Armentieres
Fw Heinz Jahner 9/JG 2 Spitfire 12:37 no location
Lt Friedrich Kellner 7/JG 2 Spitfire 12:45 " "
Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire unk hrs Hazebrouck
Oblt Josef Priller 1/JG 26 Spitfire 12:45 10 km west of Lille
Lt Rolf Pingel Stab I/JG 26 Hurricane 12:50 South of Dunkirk (71 Sqn)
Lt Jorst Ulenberg 2/JG 26 Spitfire 12:50 östw. Bouckerque (this location I couldn't find)
Hptm Gerhard Schöpfel Stab III/JG 26 Spitfire 12:50 south of Lillers ( on checking this location it is not in the exact area of the raid and I wonder if it might have been a reconn. Spitfire)

I didn't include the bomber claims as Hahn only claimed a Spitfire. So two possible ID'ed claims which leaves five shot down and two damaged. Josef Priller lists his claim at 10 km west of Lille which seems to indicate a ground verification. So if someone has a loss at Hazebrouck Hahn's claim could fall in the damaged or the one that got away status.
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  #49  
Old 16th June 2016, 01:36
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Re: Hans Hahn

Nick, Sgt WG Lockhart from 74 Sqn Spitfire Vb (W3317) was shot down on the 06 Jul 1941 and not the 7th.

07 Jul 1941 Three Circuses to France this day according to Donald Caldwell's JG 26 series. JG 26 claimed five Spitfires in the morning. One of these was by Josef Priller which was possibly G/C Harry Broadhurst who landed his damaged Spitfire in England.
The details of these three Circuses I do not have to examine.

RAF losses:
74 Sqn Spitfire Sgt C Stuart (WIA) Sweep, into the sea & rescued
145 Sqn Spitfire Sgt GF Silvester (WIA) Circus 37 written off after landing
609 Sqn Spitfire Sgt G Evans (WIA) Sweep, bailed out over the sea off Boulogne & rescued

German claims:
Obfw Kurt Bühligen 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:32 no location
Lt Erich Rudorffer Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 east of Boulogne
Spitfire 15:40 " "
Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Hurricane 15:36 7 km west of Le Touquet
Hurricane 15:37 7-10 km west of Le Touquet
Lt. Hans-Georg Dippel 2/JG 26 Spitfire 15:20 Samer

Hahn's claims would have fell into the English Channel but no Hurricanes were lost which doesn't rule out that he misidentified. Still without more details it is hard to determine and verify his claims.
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  #50  
Old 16th June 2016, 03:12
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hans Hahn

Hi Michael,

Here's the source of the confusion regarding Sergeant Lockhart

Target-Support Wing B: Biggin Hill
RAF 11 Gp. 74 Sqn. 7 Spitfire Vb 14.30-16.14 Circus 38 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 1 Cat.3m Fighters H-BS: Chocques

Cat.3m 07.07.41 Sgt. W.G. Lockhart: mia-e 11 Group 74 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: ZP - Me 109s: France


From Tony Wood's listing of RAF Fighter Command missions 1941.


Nick
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