Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th September 2015, 12:08
Tobermory Tobermory is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 10
Tobermory is on a distinguished road
Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Does anyone familiar with German records know of a Ju88 lost over the Moray Firth, Scotland, on 11 October 1940? It was shot down by the rear gunner of a Wellington from No. 20 OTU at Lossiemouth. It went straight down into the sea, with no survivors. It was probably from Norway or Denmark.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8th September 2015, 12:53
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 2,867
Matti Salonen is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Probably this:
1940-10-11, 1.(F)/121, Ju 88 A-5, 880414, 7A+NH, Schottland, Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Koltermann, Kurt, vermißt
Beobachter Major Gerlach, Wilhelm, vermißt
Bordfunker Gefr Eha, Hermann, vermißt
Bordschütze Uffz Mehle, Kurt, vermißt

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 8th September 2015, 17:03
Peter Cornwell's Avatar
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,451
Peter Cornwell is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Tobermory,

Interesting. Do you have the recorded time of this engagement please ? Also further details of the No.22 OTU Wellington would be useful. Many thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 8th September 2015, 20:17
Tobermory Tobermory is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 10
Tobermory is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Matti,

Many thanks for this information. I wonder whether the German crew's relatives ever knew what had become of them. From the 'Missing' description it would appear that they might never have found out. Perhaps you could investigate.

Peter,

The time of the engagement isn't recorded in my father's logbook, but take off was at 14.25 and the flight, recorded as a "Cross-country - Exercise 5", lasted 3h50m. (German time was probably 1 hour ahead.) The note in his logbook says "Attacked by Ju88 - which was shot down by rear gunner." My father was the Wireless Operator in this crew, the pilot being P/O Bois. They were posted to No. 115 Squadron and completed their tour.

In my father's effects was a press cutting, which reads as follows:

3-BURST TRAINEES BAG NAZI
A British bomber manned entirely by pupils under training shot a Junkers 88 down into the sea off the Scottish coast on Friday. The encounter lasted exactly 45 seconds. The Air Ministry news Service says the British aircraft, a heavy night bomber type, sighted the enemy machine approaching the Scottish coast on an almost opposite course.
The German pilot turned in to atack from the bomber’s port quarter and, opening fire with its front guns at 150 yards range, passed right underneath the British aircraft. Swinging his turret as the Junkers swept below, the British rear-gunner caught the enemy bomber as it reappeared on the starboard quarter and, with three short bursts of fire, sent it diving 2,000 feet straight into the sea.
The British crew, after a fruitless search for survivors, photographed the few pieces of wreckage remaining on the water, and then resumed their interrupted training flight.

I didn't know any more than this until last night, when on a whim I managed to trace Finlay Pirie's brief account. I won't quote from the pdf, but the relevant section is a short passage in a chronicle of air-related incidents in the Banff area of Scotland. He writes that the incident was reported in the Express, so the cutting may be from there.

According to Mr Pirie the rear gunner, Sgt Geoff Prior, was able to fire only a few rounds from two of his four guns, but this is improbable, for early Wellingtons had only two machine-guns in the rear turret. I have written to find out where Mr Pirie got his information, as I have been never been able to trace any 20 OTU records for that period. If anyone else knows....


As to the Wellington, thereby hangs a tale. Its serial number (according to the logbook) was N2873. This aircraft had taken part in the ill-fated attack on Wilhelmshaven on 18/12/39. It had been severely damaged during the raid and was landed at RAF Sutton Bridge, the pilot being Sgt Petts of No. 9 Squadron. It seems to have ended up at 20 OTU after repair. What is especially sobering about Mr Pirie's account is the number of air crashes by pupil crews throughout the war.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 9th September 2015, 08:22
Peter Cornwell's Avatar
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,451
Peter Cornwell is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Tobermory,

Many thanks for this information. As you rightly say, a poorly documented incident otherwise. Incidentally, an unsuccessful overnight search for the German crew was launched by Heinkel He59 BV+HH of Seenotflugkdo.5 from Stavanger. Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 9th September 2015, 09:36
Tobermory Tobermory is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 10
Tobermory is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

ORBs for operational fighter/bomber units have survived better than those for training units, even the operational ones. The RAF was a bureaucracy run on bumf; by the end of the war it was encumbered by mountains of the stuff. One shouldn't be too hard on those who had to decide what to keep from the vast piles. At the end of the war the RAF resembled a house clearance. We are fortunate to have what is left, and I'm constantly amazed at the amount of detail that can been recovered.

Is there anyone out there who might be able to trace the German crew's families?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th September 2015, 11:57
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,299
Col Bruggy will become famous soon enough
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Tobermory,

Re: your P/O Bois. (later, 84006 S/L Peter BOIS DFC, MiD).

http://thetartanterror.blogspot.com....bois-1919.html

Col.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 9th September 2015, 12:25
Tobermory Tobermory is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 10
Tobermory is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Col,
Many thanks for this info. I have tried to find out what became of him after his first tour, but Google Search isn't perfect! I am glad he also survived.

Nick Livingstone
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10th September 2015, 12:14
Joe Potter Joe Potter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Felixstowe, England.
Posts: 377
Joe Potter
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobermory View Post
ORBs for operational fighter/bomber units have survived better than those for training units, even the operational ones. The RAF was a bureaucracy run on bumf; by the end of the war it was encumbered by mountains of the stuff. One shouldn't be too hard on those who had to decide what to keep from the vast piles. At the end of the war the RAF resembled a house clearance. We are fortunate to have what is left, and I'm constantly amazed at the amount of detail that can been recovered.

Is there anyone out there who might be able to trace the German crew's families?
If the NVM for this loss could be found, that may give the NOK details.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10th September 2015, 12:53
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 2,867
Matti Salonen is on a distinguished road
Re: Ju88 shot down 11 October 1940

The NVM exists at WASt. You can contact them.

Matti
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Luftwaffe raids on Adlington, Lancashire. Oct/Nov 1940 captainslog7718 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 27th April 2014 16:12
Ju88 from 4./LG1 shot down 15 Aug 1940 bjorn_rose Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 31st March 2013 17:23
JG 11 - claims march-april 45 GMichalski Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 24th May 2012 16:23
Do17 Loss on October 11 , 1940 . schnellmeyer Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 25th April 2012 03:03
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 14:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net