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  #11  
Old 28th October 2018, 02:48
robert robert is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

Hi,

10.10.38
Moelders was a part of formation of six Bf109s, which attacked a group of 24 I-16s, which were protecting a formation of six SB-2s. One I-16 was hit and damaged by Bf109. Spanish pilot was wounded but he managed to nurse his shot-up fighter back to base.

Robert
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  #12  
Old 28th October 2018, 05:39
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

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Originally Posted by robert View Post
Hi,

10.10.38
Moelders was a part of formation of six Bf109s, which attacked a group of 24 I-16s, which were protecting a formation of six SB-2s. One I-16 was hit and damaged by Bf109. Spanish pilot was wounded but he managed to nurse his shot-up fighter back to base.

Robert
Thanks, Robert

Any chance you might have a name of the pilot who made it home? It would be helpful to have that detail if you can provide it
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  #13  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:16
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

hi,

Thank you all for this info,
i need other source and version on the info i have on SCW,
i could add some little info..

23.9.38
SB-2s escort by I-16 from 2ª esc, MGs jammed on four of the SBs and several of the bombers where badly shot-up had to land in fighter bases, but none were lost, aircraft of Boris Stepanovich Sharonov with PT Nechiporenko badly damaged was able to land at Reus and other SB also badly damaged at Valls.

on fighters only what Nick have:

Grupo 21, *, Only one lost seems Margalef , i-16, 3ª esc, KIA

regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #14  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:21
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

19.7.1938
Grupo 21. Day's losses include Eduardo Gonzalez Casola of 1e Esc. KIA, Shugurov Ilya G. (Шугуров Илья Григорьевич) On June 10, 1938 in Spain was a squadron commander of I-16. Made 6 sorties, participated in two air battles. In the evening, July 19, 1938, was mortally wounded in battle Me: c-109 in the El Toro and crashed in the mountains of the Levant. He was buried near the settlement Utiel. The other pilot-16 Eduardo Gonzalez Casola was able to leave the plane, but the parachute was burned and crashed MIA. One I-15 lost probably by anti-aircraft fire. Also Nikolai Romanov Романов Николай Алексеевич) Esc 5ª Moscas wounded but managed to bring and put the damaged aircraft to their base. Explosive bullet wounded him in the leg.
.World War II in September 1941, commanded the 429 th Fighter Regiment. October 18, 1941 was killed in an air battle near the village of Copper Kalinin district of Tver region
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #15  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:30
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

19.8.38
Very confusing day,

Robert you have:
Three I-16s were shot down (including Wasilij Worobiew and 2 Spanish pilots) and Nikolaj Gierasimow returned with 7 bullet holes but he managed to land safely.

i have:
Grupo 21, *, combat around 11 am dogfight over Ebro river, Vasily Vorobev Fedorovich (оробьёв Василий Фёдорович) got hit in the fuel tank. The plane CM-188 exploded in the air and the pilot died.
[arias1995] in this version the soviet pilot bail out over republican lines.
Santamaria y Tabernero reach the airdrome with many impacts in their aircrafts in Corbera.
Esc 1,4,3,5 i-16 some losses, one bf-109 damaged was seen escape...(only engine smoke?)
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #16  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:32
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

23.8.38
At 15.00 hrs 4 Bf109s tried to attack 6 SB-2, which dropped bombs in the area of Villalba. The bombers were escorted by 24 I-16s. On an altitude of 3000 m no.5 squadron of red forces intercepted the Bf109s. 1 claim was reported by each of both sides but no losses were suffered.
Some losses were suffered in later combat (at 19.00 hrs) but with Italian planes and Bf109s of 1.J/88.


i have:
Ivan Nikiforovich Pavlov "Juan" KIA 23 august 38 in I-16 CM-206 while escorting SBs Abrosov says by Bf-109s but in other version Fiats....also I-16s of Petr Gerasimovich Glushkov and Mikhail Vasilevich Onishchenko were shot up but both able to return to the airfield, Vladimir Stepanovich Volkov involved in combat with Bf-109s and his aircraft was badly shot up, tring to return to his airfield he had to land wheels up
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #17  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:35
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

9.9.38
same version..

13.9.39
Over Flix area, he spotted 7th Squadron (Spanish - it meant consisnt only from Spanish pilots, no Russians). Following his attacks, 7th Squadron lost 4 !!! I-16:
CM-125, CM-154, CM-178, CM-192. 1 pilot - Jaime Sau Colom - was killed, aircraft crashed beyound frontline; 1 bailed out wounded, over Republican territory;1 bailed out, over Republican territory; 1 pilot - Aresti (it was his 1st combat mission and he was very very novice pilot) - lost orientation under attacks of Bf109, and landed on Lerida airfield (in Frankists airfield) !!!
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #18  
Old 28th October 2018, 18:43
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

10.10.38
On fighters:

Grupo 21, *, Meanwhile, in the battle between the fighters Werner Mölders, who led the six of Me-109 shot down one I-16. Republican wounded pilot barely managed to sit on an emergency outside the airport (impactos en ala y dos cilindros del motor perforados). Spanish pilot was wounded but he managed to nurse his shot-up fighter back to base

on bombers:
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24, Immediately attacked the led aircraft, knocking 1 bomber (pilot Trubitsyn Ivan Iosifovich, navigator Utkin Ivan Alekseevich both bail out and gunner Zakhar Savelevich Skutov KIA) and severely damaged two others, the Germans turned around and attacked the trailing pair. During the second attack gunners of SB managed to damage the plane of one of the attackers. "Messerschmitt" went out of the fight and made an emergency landing on its territory. Teammate Germans also stopped the fight and return shut downed aircraft. The gunner was killed downed SC Zahar Scoot (last fallen in Spain Soviet volunteer). Two other crew members were saved by parachute. 2 SB more with damage could not reach the airport. One heavily damaged bomber pilot Boris Stepanovich Sharonov with a bomb stuck in the bomb bay, was able to return to their base. When boarding the plane caught fire, it launched on the run, landing gear buckled and fell to bomb the locks. Fortunately, there was no explosion, but the bomber had to be written off all crew wounded include SB-radio gunner Andrei Fedorovich Kozhemyako. All 3 crew were wounded.

sorry about poor traduction

kind regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #19  
Old 28th October 2018, 21:47
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Would you say that is enough to render the whole practice of matching claims to losses invalid? You have, after all, helped me with some real and valuable corrections here
Well, matching claims and losses is not just collating known lists of claims and losses. Some research is necessary, as otherwise it could lead to wrong conclusions. You try to asses accuracy of claims of pilots, but it is not possible in such a simple way.
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  #20  
Old 29th October 2018, 02:08
robert robert is offline
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Re: Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichalski View Post
hi,

Thank you all for this info,
i need other source and version on the info i have on SCW,
i could add some little info..

23.9.38
SB-2s escort by I-16 from 2ª esc, MGs jammed on four of the SBs and several of the bombers where badly shot-up had to land in fighter bases, but none were lost, aircraft of Boris Stepanovich Sharonov with PT Nechiporenko badly damaged was able to land at Reus and other SB also badly damaged at Valls.

on fighters only what Nick have:

Grupo 21, *, Only one lost seems Margalef , i-16, 3ª esc, KIA

regards
Hi,

I`m using also a book of Abrasow but Russian version (Moskwa 2008).
He wrote that between 13.15 and 14.30 hrs 3 squadrons of I-16, including 1 Soviet squadron, were patrolling over the frontline when they were attacked by 40 Fiat fighters. An air combat ensued and it lasted 25-30 minutes. Lt. Wiktor Zjuzin was posted MIA as well as 3 Spanish pilots were also posted MIA (Francisco Catala Usero, Manuel Vega Gomez and Luis Margalef Vernet). Aircraft of Griciewc was hit in the engine. Two Fiats were claimed as shot down.

Regards

Robert
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