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  #11  
Old 12th October 2006, 10:59
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Eugen,

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Documents were lost and it is not possible to verify the data.
This is not true. Some documents are lost, other documents are safe. According to survived documents the collision on the 5th mentioned by Franek could have happened, but only during the aerial fighting of 112 eskadra with another German formation. It was reported by a Polish pilot long after the campaign`s end and has no confirmation in any other document. However this "maybe collision" has nothing to do with the mission flown by I./ZG 1.

And I don`t know anything about further Polish losses you could attribute to I./ZG 1 on the 4th September (up to the mentioned P.23 in Naklo area).

Regards,
Marius
  #12  
Old 12th October 2006, 17:11
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Privet Evgeniy
Now you may see by yourself. There are no documents, this causing some claims speculative, but there are documents making them not speculative.
Be careful with those data and take them with a grain of salt.
Regarding combat of 5 September - there is an account of an airman who took part in the battle and who was killed in 1941, so the account could not have been written long after the events. More, in the account the one may find a suggestion, that one of the fallen pilots may have been hit by enemy (it was considered to be more 'honorary' to be killed by enemy and not by an ordinary collision), but otherwise it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision.
Concerning other possible kills of ZG1, kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September, some other aircraft being shot up. I have scans of original 1939 documents.
History is not one sided.
I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread.
  #13  
Old 12th October 2006, 21:23
Marius Marius is offline
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Smile Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.


Quote:
it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision
In fact nothing is clear. "An account of an airman"... Just one simple question to Franek: What is the name of this airman?

By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2.

Quote:
kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September
Kpt.Rolski seems to be the only one who wrote about a "Bf 110" on this day. In fact the pilots of III/4 saw no differences between a Do 17 and a Bf 110. They even didn`t know what a Bf 110 was.
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s).
The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie.

Quote:
I have scans of original 1939 documents.
You mean Polish documents. I think this is a very important difference. But regarding the participating German aircraft types these documents are
(almost) useless.

Quote:
I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread.
A very good idea! The last time your fellowman Mirek was starting with furious personal attacks. I hope you make it better Franek.

Best wishes,
Marius
  #14  
Old 12th October 2006, 22:02
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Gentlemen, this is an interesting discussion, I hope we can keep it civilized.
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  #15  
Old 12th October 2006, 22:05
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Heya!

Why are you so agressive? Take it easy

Yep, there is a lot of missindefication during early war For example Bf110 from 4./SKG 210, shot down by Kapitan Kruglov from 124 IAP, was identificated as Do 215

Its all clear over Poland & Denmark. Lets talk about Wesern claims of Gruppe - Dunkirk, Holland...
  #16  
Old 12th October 2006, 22:45
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Eugen,

the problem is the following: there exist no work describing the whole air war or Luftwaffe activities over France and the low countries in 1940. Regarding the Bf 110 we have the book Zerstörer written by John Vasco. But it is clear, still many details are not known so far and even more questions remain unanswered.

The Luftwaffe in Poland 1939 was the same problem until I started my investigation some more than 15 years ago. I hope someone will make it similar about the French campaign.

Franek wrote about important scans of documents. I am very interested. Please give Franek the possibility to present these documents here on the forum. I think we can discuss them more or less all together.
I am also interested in the action of Bf 110 over France. I hope someone can present us some unknown details.

And Eugen, who is aggressive here?

Best wishes,
Marius
  #17  
Old 12th October 2006, 23:00
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Evgeniy, simply the war is not over for some people.

Ruy, I will do all my best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.
I can hardly call it unproductive but indeed for some it brought completely nothing.
Quote:
In fact nothing is clear. "An account of an airman"... Just one simple question to Franek: What is the name of this airman?
Łapkowski, commander of a section in the very combat.
Quote:
By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2.
Those were the only losses of Brygada Pościgowa, apart of few damaged aircraft.
Quote:
Kpt.Rolski seems to be the only one who wrote about a "Bf 110" on this day. In fact the pilots of III/4 saw no differences between a Do 17 and a Bf 110. They even didn`t know what a Bf 110 was.
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s).
The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie.
Your whole comments have nothing to the reality. I have scans of original diary of the unit and there is no single mention of Me 110 apart of later comments, apparently added by Rolski at Salon. Initially Leśniewski 'was downed by Do-17s' and then later confirmed to be Me 110s. Apparently I.(J)/LG2 took part in the earlier combat and actually downed nothing.
Quote:
You mean Polish documents. I think this is a very important difference. But regarding the participating German aircraft types these documents are
(almost) useless.
Absolutelly, Polish documents filed at the time of Polish Campaign.
Quote:
A very good idea! The last time your fellowman Mirek was starting with furious personal attacks. I hope you make it better Franek.
You will see.
  #18  
Old 13th October 2006, 12:48
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi,

Quote:
Łapkowski, commander of a section in the very combat.
Okay, I read it. It seems Lapkowski couldn`t remember the mission exactly. He wrote it from his mind long after the campaign`s end. According to this Nowakowski and Okrzeja should have collided as they fought against I./KG 2. But this collision cannot be true. There were two sections of 112 eskadra. The first fought in the Wyszkow area (north-east of Warsaw) against I./KG 2 (Okrzeja,Lokuciewski,Lech,Lapkowski,Daszewski,Strz embosz), the second in the Zakroczym area (north-west of Warsaw) against IV./LG 1 with escort of I./ZG 1 (Opulski,Nowakowski,Krawczynski,Gorecki,Cichocki). Both sections fought against German formations at the same time and this could be the reason for much confusion done by Polish authors.
Kpt.Opulski wrote something very interesting about the fight of his section (Pawlak published it in "Polskie eskadry"). Also Lokuciewski of the other section saw the death of his comrade Okrzeja and described it in his memoires. Nothing about a collision.

Quote:
Those were the only losses of Brygada Pościgowa, apart of few damaged aircraft.
This is not true. Look to the original document of Brygada Poscigowa for the 5th Sept., 17.00 hours:
kpr.Gorecki damaged forcelanded [I./ZG 1],
pchor.Nowakowski shot down [I./ZG 1],
por.Okrzeja shot down [I./KG 2],
st.szer.Cichocki crashlanded [I./ZG 1]
Nothing about a collision.

Also this Polish document brings a little bit confusion. But when you compare this with German records, many questions find their answers;
The document only reports about a fight between 5 P.11 and 3 Dornier Do 215 (sic!). This was surely the section of kpt.Opulski (5 pilots). The 3 Do 215 were in fact 3 Ju 87 of IV./LG 1. According to the document 1 Do 215 flew away with smoking engine. Indeed, 1 Ju 87B of IV./LG 1 was damaged and forcelanded on Polish territory.
There is nothing about the other fight between 6 P.11 and Do 17`s of I./KG 2. The reason is - I suppose - exactly the same time of both engagements. And the mission was counted as one although two sections of the unit flew in two different directions.

Quote:
Initially Leśniewski 'was downed by Do-17s' and then later confirmed to be Me 110s.
Could you quote some sentences? What is the date of the document?

Quote:
I have scans of original diary of the unit and there is no single mention of Me 110 apart of later comments,
Really? In the original combat report from 4th Sept. kpt. Rolski wrote about 3 Messerschmitt 110 which attacked a single fighter of his unit. He shot at the aircraft without any result. (IPMS, Lot. AII.15/1b-11)


Quote:
Apparently I.(J)/LG2 took part in the earlier combat and actually downed nothing.
We do not know the exact hour of claims reported by 1.Staffel (J)/LG 2. But many Polish pilots wrote later they fought against Bf 109`s (later combat).
Apparently the earlier combat was fought against Ju 87`s of 9./StG 2, the later against Ju 87`s of 7. and 8./StG 2 and Bf 109`s.
Polish losses were the following:
por.Pisarek damaged forcelanded [9./StG 2],
ppor.Pniak damaged forcelanded,
ppor.Kogut damaged forcelanded,
kpt.Lesniewski shot down [1.(J)/LG 2]

Regards,
Marius
  #19  
Old 13th October 2006, 13:46
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Here claims 1.(J)/LG 2:

04.09.39 Fw. Hugo Frey: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry
04.09.39 Ltn. Klaus Quaet-Faslem: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry
04.09.39 Ofw. Hermann Guhl: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry
  #20  
Old 13th October 2006, 14:09
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

One correction:

Lt.Quaet-Faslems victory was not confirmed.

I worked on this Poland victory list together with Mr. Bock.

Regards,
Marius
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