I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

[Franek Grabowski]

No, I wrote something about the book and the way the autor works. In fact its me who can not defend against personal attacks Mr. Cynk made in Polish paper Lotnictwo Wojskowe 5/2005.

TOCH is not the place, that Mr Cynk visits and I do not think it is the proper place to attack him personally. You could write a reply to the journal and apparently you did not.

Nobody spoke about a "direct cooperation". It was the "problem" of Polish publishers only to bring the data together. Mr. Cynk disregarded German records completely (sorry, almost completely - he brought in his own interpretation (sic!!) of GQM records). Without German records the book is almost worthless. This is not only my opinion, but of many Polish historians of the "younger generation".

Who are those 'many Polish historians'? Could you name at least one of them? The book is definetelly highly regarded by Polish historians including such experts like dr Tomasz Kopański, who certainly is not from the old generation.

Why? I showed one example above describing 5th Sept. and the mission flown by 112 eskadra. Next example: according to Cynk German records are confirming (?!) the loss of a He 111 of I./KG 152 shot down by 123 eskadra over Warsaw on the 5th. In fact this bomber was shot down 100 km`s away from Warsaw by Polish AA. Another example: 6 He 111`s of II./LG 1 shot down by Polish fighters in the morning of 1th Sept. Pretendendly confirmed by German documents (sic!?). But in fact such documents do not exist. The existing documents are confirming the loss of 1 He 111 + 1 He 111 belly landed (sic!). As well in GQM records, known to Mr. Cynk (sic!).

Nobody said there are no errors in Mr Cynk's books, including himself. Nonetheless the point is, the book is about Polish fighters and not Luftwaffe and the book has no more than a single sentence about each mentioned German loss.

2 engined aircraft at a height of appr. 2000 m. Pniak saw 7 airplanes from the ground, before he started. After he started there appears nothing more about 2 engined aircraft. But 3 (!!) aircraft "of the same type" attacked him. IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1c-15 (also Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..., page 242).

The report says exactly:
'Before take off I saw 7 German twin engined aircraft at an altitude of about 2,000 meters. I climbed in the direction of those seven. At an altitude of 1,500 meters I was attacked by another three aircraft of the same type.'
The report is perfectly clear.

From the beginning of the war German Bf 109`s and Bf 110`s flew in sections of 2 (Rotte). This is not a secret. You can find this information in my book Jagdflieger (appendixes, experiences of German units).

I have checked. Those issues are raised only in the report of V(Z)/LG1 and the very same report mentions that in most cases they flew in formation of 7 aircraft. How could they fly in finger four formation, I really do not know. Another important note is that the report just only says, the pair is the minimum formation and the aircraft should not fly alone. Not a great find, known in Poland before the war as well. This has nothing to finger four and German fighters are reported to fly in sections of three well into the Battle of Britain.

Only Pniak`s combat report, right?

Yes, and the diary of the unit filed at the very same time.

It`s only your stubbornness. Even in original Polish documents you will find 3 P.11 only which participated in the earlier combat against Ju 87`s. Por. Pisarek had then to forceland his badly damaged aircraft and exactly this is described in the records of III./StG 2. In the latter combat 13 PZL took part and it is logical that I./LG 2 only then could have claimed 3 of them.

Neither Polish documents mention Me 109s. Logical conclusion is that the aggressive Ju 87s from the first combat actually were 109s.

I don`t believe it. You often are referring to Polish documents which in fact do not exist. So I repeat my request: please show me the document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra in the midday of 5th Sept.

I am in the midst of other projects that I have to finish. I will not stop working on them only because of your wish. I am slowly gathering documents for some Polish Campaign subjects as well as extensive comment on your works but this needs time. Part of the documents is on the way from England but again, time is needed, even to type on this forum. I have very little of it recently. Haben Sie verstanden?!
Otherwise I see very little purpose in providing documents, as you can write such sentences whenever you wish with regard of any part of any document. For you, Polish reports are worthless in general.

As I wrote earlier Polish combat reports are useless regarding particular German aircraft types. German records are not confirming what you would like to have.

The general conclusion is that the German records are incomplete and that those data should be taken with a grain of salt. Evgeniy seems to understand that and I see no reason in continuing the discussion.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thnk You very mutch, Rob & Marius!

Originally Posted by rob van den nieuwendijk

... Oblt Werner Streib 1
Fw Paul Gildner 1
Uffz Müller 2
Oblt Möller 1

Other sources also mention Leutnant Knacke with one claim - he flew in the Schwarm of Streib, Gildner and Müller.

Regards
Rob

According Your information, F/O Hayes was that "brilliant pilot", who could run alive from Falck under his fire.

My sourses sayd, that:

Streib had no more claims with I./ZG 1, all rest - as Nacht Jager.

Paul Gildner had 44 night victoryes, total 48 victoryes. So, this 4 claims MIGHT be with I./ZG 1, he was a member 3./ZG 1 at that time. Need just to check...

Knacke had 44 night kills too, and he was a 3./ZG 1 member too. But I have no info about his TOTAL score.

Salute all!

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Eugen,

Try to get hold of Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945, Band 1 Jagdflieger, by Ernst Obermaier - (second print 1989) -

page 56

Paul Gildner
01.02.1914 born in Nimptsch/Niederschlesien
24/25.02.1943 KIA Gilze-Rijen/Holland
09.07.41 RK; 26.02.43 EL (nr 196)
25.05.42 Deutsche Kreuz

Some info for you: - since 1938 als Unteroffizier with 6./JG 132 (later 3./ZG 1) - took part in campaigns over Poland, Norway and France. Shot down a Blenheim on 10 May 40 and a Morane on 5 June 40. On 26 June 40 his unit became part of the Nachtjagd.

Also Ludwig Becker (page 56)
22.08.11 in Dortmund
26.02.43 north of Schiermonnikoog/Northsea/Holland
01.07.42 RK; 26.02.43 EL (Nr 198 )
04.05.42 Deutsches Kreuz
02.03.42 Ehrenpokal

Belonged to 3./ZG 1 since start of the war - participated over France and his unit was transferred to Nachtjagd in June 40 - On 16/17 Oct 40 he claimed his first victory with 4./NJG 1.

Feb 43 was a costly month of the German nightfighter force.

Regards
Rob

[Evgeny Velichko]

I fount it:
http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv05/200512031821.htm

http://www.swg-hamburg.de/Armee_im_K...s_deutsch.html

http://www.gyges.dk/heraldics.htm

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi all!

Robert - any more info about I./ZG 1 actions over Holland, or over Dunkirk?

To John Vasco - is it known how many claims had Erpr.Gr.210 during BoB, and how many aircrafts were lost?

THX to all!

[Evgeny Velichko]

Marius - many thanks for Info...

But where did You found NAMES of pilots, who claimed victories during Polish campaign?

P.S. About 3 - airplane schwarm of german airplanes:
I dont know about earlywar, but on 3.02.42 there was a combat mission of 3 Bf 110 to airfield near Toropetz.

Also, during combat mission one of four could return because of tech problems e.t.c, and 3 other could continue flight to target.

"Kette" could appear because of many reasons, & this is not showing that "that planes was BOMBERS or STUKAS.

IMHO.

[Marius]

Eugen,

If you are confused by Franek, don`t mind. Franek does not like my work, because I found many German records which are clearing up with so many Polish legends. For him every German document is incomplete or even falsified when contrary to Polish pilots memories. The main point is he must not revise his own vision of air war history in Poland.

PHP Code:

 But where did You found NAMES of pilots, who claimed victories during Polish campaign? 


In archives, German war diaries and so on. Furthermore I worked on the complete victory list for Poland together with our expert here in Germany Mr. Bock.

PHP Code:

 "Kette" could appear because of many reasons, & this is not showing that "that planes was BOMBERS or STUKAS. 


Something about German terms:
Rotte - 2 aircraft (fighter),
Kette - 3 aircraft (bomber),
Schwarm - 4 aircraft (fighter).

For the 4th Sept. 1939 it is remarkable that several Polish pilots reported they have fought with formations of "3 German airplanes". No doubt, they were mainly Ju 87`s of III./StG 2. Sure, it could happen that one Bf 110 or Bf 109 had to fly back to basis with engine trouble and there remained 3 aircraft in the air. But the Luftwaffe formation of two fighters was already introduced in Spain and later taken over by other nations.

But nonetheless of this story I had 18 German victories for the 5th Sept. 1939 before I looked to the details of the mission of the Polish 112 eskadra. Official German documents are reporting of at all 20 victories for the day. So the remaining two victories could indeed be claimed by I./ZG 1 against 112 eskadra. Polish losses are confirming this. Also the account of the formation leader kpt.Opulski. And additionally I have an account of a German airman who was shot down in the Ju 87. He wrote about 2 Polish losses he observed before he had to leave the formation and forceland on Polish territory.

Here is something for you from a German document (translated into English by a friend of mine); Expieriences of I.(Z)/LG 1 in Poland 1939:

The escort is, according to availibility, to be composed from at least 1 "Schwarm" of Zerstörer formed from 2 "Rotte". The "Schwarm" should fly loosely stepped, within sight of the bomber "Staffel" at appr. the same altitude as the tail "Kette" of the bomber "Staffel".
Attacks are to be executed by the "Rotte"...
(another simple translation of the last sentence: The general operational formation is the "Rotte".).

Marius

[Evgeny Velichko]

2 Marius: thx for help, really. It seems its all clear with I./ZG 1 in Poland. If I will have any additional questions or e.t.c. - I will ask using Privat Message, Ok?

Then, many thanks to all for info about invasion in Denmark. Very interesting, really.

For now, I bought a book about Blitzkrieg in West. Now I trying to find some moments about invasion in Holland, and Dunkirk.

Also, any websourse aviable about those aircombats may-june 1940?

[John Beaman]

I am closing this thread as it has lost its focus.