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  #21  
Old 13th October 2006, 19:17
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Evgeniy, no time, which is crucial in this case. There were two separate combats over the exact place but within one hour.

Quote:
Okay, I read it. It seems Lapkowski couldn`t remember the mission exactly. He wrote it from his mind long after the campaign`s end. According to this Nowakowski and Okrzeja should have collided as they fought against I./KG 2. But this collision cannot be true.
What is long after and why your statements are so definite?
Quote:
There were two sections of 112 eskadra. The first fought in the Wyszkow area (north-east of Warsaw) against I./KG 2 (Okrzeja,Lokuciewski,Lech,Lapkowski,Daszewski,Strz embosz), the second in the Zakroczym area (north-west of Warsaw) against IV./LG 1 with escort of I./ZG 1 (Opulski,Nowakowski,Krawczynski,Gorecki,Cichocki). Both sections fought against German formations at the same time and this could be the reason for much confusion done by Polish authors.
Kpt.Opulski wrote something very interesting about the fight of his section (Pawlak published it in "Polskie eskadry"). Also Lokuciewski of the other section saw the death of his comrade Okrzeja and described it in his memoires. Nothing about a collision.
Now, could you state original sources for those statements (neither is from the Polish Campaign)? Could you explain the difference between older source (Pawlak 1991) and newer (Cynk 2000)? The latter states that the sections were Okrzeja, Łokuciewski, Nowakowski and Łapkowski, Górecki, Gallus? How about statement of Łaszkiewicz, who noted Okrzeja was hit by own A.A.?
Quote:
This is not true. Look to the original document of Brygada Poscigowa for the 5th Sept., 17.00 hours:
kpr.Gorecki damaged forcelanded [I./ZG 1],
pchor.Nowakowski shot down [I./ZG 1],
por.Okrzeja shot down [I./KG 2],
st.szer.Cichocki crashlanded [I./ZG 1]
Nothing about a collision.
This exactly confirms my words. Two aircraft were destroyed and few more damaged. The document filed almost at the time of combat cannot be entirely reliable when discussing the cause and it would be ridiculous to draw conclusions from a single piece of paper. There are also other statements and documents, which should not be disregarded.
Quote:
Also this Polish document brings a little bit confusion. But when you compare this with German records, many questions find their answers;
The document only reports about a fight between 5 P.11 and 3 Dornier Do 215 (sic!). This was surely the section of kpt.Opulski (5 pilots). The 3 Do 215 were in fact 3 Ju 87 of IV./LG 1. According to the document 1 Do 215 flew away with smoking engine. Indeed, 1 Ju 87B of IV./LG 1 was damaged and forcelanded on Polish territory.
There is nothing about the other fight between 6 P.11 and Do 17`s of I./KG 2. The reason is - I suppose - exactly the same time of both engagements. And the mission was counted as one although two sections of the unit flew in two different directions.
This is just ridiculous - there are Polish documents that clearly state it was 111 Eskadra which fought against Ju 87s at the very same time.
Quote:
Could you quote some sentences? What is the date of the document?
The diary says clearly that Dyon 'attacked over the airfield enemy bomber raid consisting about 30 aircraft - Dorniers and Ju 87s - returning from a bombing.'
It also states: 'Kpt. Leśniewski downed "Ju 87", but attacked by few, defended himself for a long time, and was shot down.' A comment 'M.110' was added later, probably at Salon by Rolski. Similar additions appear in other documents and a different ink is clearly visible.
Quote:
Really? In the original combat report from 4th Sept. kpt. Rolski wrote about 3 Messerschmitt 110 which attacked a single fighter of his unit. He shot at the aircraft without any result. (IPMS, Lot. AII.15/1b-11)
I cannot find this particular report, but as noted above, corrections were added to several documents and this could be the case.
Quote:
We do not know the exact hour of claims reported by 1.Staffel (J)/LG 2. But many Polish pilots wrote later they fought against Bf 109`s (later combat).
Apparently the earlier combat was fought against Ju 87`s of 9./StG 2, the later against Ju 87`s of 7. and 8./StG 2 and Bf 109`s.
Polish losses were the following:
por.Pisarek damaged forcelanded [9./StG 2],
ppor.Pniak damaged forcelanded,
ppor.Kogut damaged forcelanded,
kpt.Lesniewski shot down [1.(J)/LG 2]
Who is the many? I recall only Skalski. In the reports I have, there is no single mention of any Messerschmitt, be it 109 or 110. Also, no Polish document link any loss with any particular German unit.
Do I have to repeat ad nauseam that Pniak in his report dated 4.09.1939 clearly states that he fought against twin engined aircraft and that this is in agreement with a report of Rolski filed in Salon one and a half month later? Also it looks diary of the unit states it was Do 17 and only later someone corrected the entry to Ju 87.
Finally, it was you, who excluded possibility of joint Me 109/Me 110 escort, which leads to the clear conclusion.

I am afraid that further discussion leads nowhere. You have not seen a single Polish document, not to mention any knowledge about what has survived. Instead you deny any information included there, based on outdated books. When I wrote a comment to your article on III/4 Dyon, based on documents and not books, and giving reference to every single original document, your only comment was - it is worthless. How one can argue with you?
  #22  
Old 13th October 2006, 21:06
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hmmmm.....

All is hard...

It seems that there just not enough information about actions of Gruppe in Poland in 1939...

Same thing as claims and losses of Erpr.Gr.210 over England... I know only 4 claims of this unit, but there MUST be more: for example Eduard Tratt added 10 claims to his score during BoB:http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tratt.html

Thats all I could find ErprobungsGruppe 210 claims, from Tony Woods lists:

27.07.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane  über See vor Dover - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1
11.08.40 Fw. Otto Rückert: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-2
11.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Schoenfeldt: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-3
12.08.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 2 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-4

Seems I have more info about Gruppe actions during 1941 (as I./SKG 210), Battle of Kharkow in may 1942, Battle of Stalingrad in late 1942, "sitzcrieg" in early 1943, Battle of Kursk in july 1943 - then about actions in 1939 - 1940...

This is sad...
  #23  
Old 13th October 2006, 22:02
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Privet Evgeniy
You are absolutelly correct, there are serious gaps in documents, that possibly will never be filled. Frankly, I do not understand, why to prove otherwise.
  #24  
Old 13th October 2006, 22:09
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi Eugen,
Do you know of any good sites listing losses from ZG1 / SKG210, lost during Kharkov or the Battle of Kursk 1942-43. in Russia. that might be available on any Russian website?

Best Regs,
Steve.
  #25  
Old 13th October 2006, 22:19
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi Steve!

List of SKG 210/ZG 1 damage/losses can be found in John Vasco's perfect book "Sting of Luftwaffe".

Now I am working on confirmation of ZG 1 claims & losses in Russian sourses. Already found something very interested, according Battle of Stalingrad late 1942, Battle of Kursk 1943.

Just check thread about Hauptmann Wilfried Herrman

BTW: Do You know Russian?
  #26  
Old 13th October 2006, 23:08
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi Eugen,
Sadly i dont speak any Russian, just wondered if you might have been able to recommend any good ZG1 / SKG210 links to other sites in Russia.

Im also aware of John Vasco's Sting of the Luftwaffe book, this being high on my wanted list! Im currentley trying to locate one.

Best regards for now,
Steve.
  #27  
Old 13th October 2006, 23:33
Marius Marius is offline
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Smile Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Quote:
What is long after and why your statements are so definite?
On the 5th Sept.:
3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow).
IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book.
According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document).
There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that.

Quote:
Could you explain the difference between older source (Pawlak 1991) and newer (Cynk 2000)? The latter states that the sections were Okrzeja, Łokuciewski, Nowakowski and Łapkowski, Górecki, Gallus? How about statement of Łaszkiewicz, who noted Okrzeja was hit by own A.A.?
I could write many pages about mistakes and manipulations done by Mr. Cynk. But the fact that in his ignorance he decided to disregard German records completely as some Polish publishers tried to build up an outstanding work (for the first time ever) shows us the way this autor works. The only useful things in his book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..." are the original Polish documents.

A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right?




Quote:
There are also other statements and documents, which should not be disregarded.

Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them.

Quote:
This is just ridiculous - there are Polish documents that clearly state it was 111 Eskadra which fought against Ju 87s at the very same time.
Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them also.




Quote:
I cannot find this particular report, but as noted above, corrections were added to several documents and this could be the case.

IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it.


Quote:
Who is the many?
For sure Skalski and Rolski. But that`s not the point. At the end you will find Do 17`s, Ju 87`s, Me 109`s and Me 110`s. Maybe you will even find some Me 262`s.


Quote:
Do I have to repeat ad nauseam that Pniak in his report dated 4.09.1939 clearly states that he fought against twin engined aircraft
Pniak repoprted "two engined aircraft" from a distance of appr. 2 000 meters and before he ever started! He then fought against these aircraft and was credited with a ... Ju 87! So he claimed a two engined Ju 87.
Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s.

No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2.

One correction for your archive:
Earlier combat 8. and 9./StG 2, later combat 7./StG 2 and I.(J)/LG 2.

Quote:
Finally, it was you, who excluded possibility of joint Me 109/Me 110 escort, which leads to the clear conclusion.
Joint formations of Me 109/Me 110 did not fly any single mission for one bomber formation (strenght 9 - 30 aircraft) in Poland 1939. I am very sorry that you do not know that.

Marius
  #28  
Old 14th October 2006, 09:53
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi all, many thanks for help!

Another claims over Holland...

Quote:
10 May 1940 I/ZG 1 intercepted six Blenheim IVs of RAF 600 Squadron over Walhaven airfield, five were shot down with only one escaping. Falck describes his experiences as he tries to bag the one that escaped.
One of Blenheims was shot down by Oblt. Werner Streib... But all other?

Quote:
To 11 May 1940 Wolfgang Schenck claimed in Holland his first two air victories, but 16.05.1940 in the aerial combat with Hurricane he was heavily wounded.
Any more?
  #29  
Old 14th October 2006, 10:27
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve sheridan
Hi Eugen,
Sadly i dont speak any Russian, just wondered if you might have been able to recommend any good ZG1 / SKG210 links to other sites in Russia.

Im also aware of John Vasco's Sting of the Luftwaffe book, this being high on my wanted list! Im currentley trying to locate one.

Best regards for now,
Steve.
Hi Steve!

http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0764313053

http://www.addall.com/detail/0764313053.html

http://www.naval-military-press.com/...books/4918.htm

http://www.amazon.ca/Sting-Luftwaffe...e=UTF8&s=books

http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/...edback?1000747

Hope this wil helps You

Unfortunatly I cannot by it...
  #30  
Old 14th October 2006, 10:44
robert robert is online now
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi,

I have following serials of lost Blenheims from 600 RAF on the 1o.05.40:
- L1335
- L1401
- L1514
- L1515
- L6612
Could someone confirm them? At which time this action took place? Around midday?
I have also a Blenheim L1517 from 604 RAF as lost to the fighters on the 10.05.40. Perhaps someone has here more details?

Regards

Robert
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