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  #31  
Old 14th October 2006, 12:10
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Great, Robert! Thank You very mutch!

We will find it together, I beleive...

Are there in Web aviable sourse about airwar over Holland? Or some books?
  #32  
Old 14th October 2006, 14:44
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hi,

another I/ZG1 kill is Fokker T-V from BomVA No.855 shot down over North Sea at 06... in the morning. Also Fokker D-XXI No. 2-1 JAVA no.216 was shot down by Bf110 some time earlier (05...) and crashed near to Den Deyl.
On the 11.05.40 Bf110s shot down another T-V from BomVA No.850 and two D-XXI, this time from 2-2 JAVA, no.229 (c/l) and 213.

Regards

Robert
  #33  
Old 14th October 2006, 16:37
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugen Gross
Great, Robert! Thank You very mutch!

We will find it together, I beleive...

Are there in Web aviable sourse about airwar over Holland? Or some books?
There are several books on the air war over Holland, they are however in Dutch, which might pose a problem. Also most of them are out of print and not easy to find.

The author Ab A. Jansen wrote most of the titles you are after.

Fliegerhorst Schiphol, Wespennest Leeuwarden en Sporen aan de Hemel. Also Nooit was het Stil, records much of the fighting over the Netherlands. These (multi volume) books together would give you a pretty good history on the air fighting over my native country.

EDIT: for the fighting prior and during the 1940 invasion, Luchtverdediging and Illusies en Incidenten are a must.
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  #34  
Old 15th October 2006, 00:20
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Robert: incredible info, but we dont know dates of I./ZG 1 claims...

But even if this could be found, is it impossible to find earlier notes of unit?

Are there alive veterans of I./ZG 1? Does they hav theyr oun memorybooks?

.... So hard there in West...

Ruy - is it possible to find it & translate it? How can anybody caould purchase even scans or copyes of those books?

With best wishes, Evgenij.
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  #35  
Old 15th October 2006, 02:41
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
On the 5th Sept.:
3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow).
IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book.
According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document).
There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that.
You reffer only to the published documents and you do not even know when they were filed. Sorry, how can you make a source's critique? Not to mention that Mr Cynk included only a fraction of available documents, simply of practical reasons.
Quote:
I could write many pages about mistakes and manipulations done by Mr. Cynk. But the fact that in his ignorance he decided to disregard German records completely as some Polish publishers tried to build up an outstanding work (for the first time ever) shows us the way this autor works. The only useful things in his book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..." are the original Polish documents.
Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here. As yet nobody has proven him any manipulations, quite contrary to your writing. To be fair, you should add that it was you, who had to write the German part for his book. It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you. The book of Mr Cynk is excellent and very ballanced Polish view of Polish fighter aviation in the Polish Campaign. Nothing less, nothing more.
Quote:
A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right?
How about a hit by A.A. resulting in collision?
Quote:
Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them.
Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them also.
Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.
Quote:
IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it.
I think you ignore importance of the document, I just cannot find original copy. It is original document filed on 4.09.1939. The question is, when the note about Me 110s was added. As you noted other documents do not mention Me 110s, so it is possible it was a comment added in November 1939. Possibly even earlier, as Rolski certainly could learn about Me 110, even from pilots of Brygada Pościgowa.
Quote:
For sure Skalski and Rolski. But that`s not the point. At the end you will find Do 17`s, Ju 87`s, Me 109`s and Me 110`s. Maybe you will even find some Me 262`s.
Sarcasm that missed the point. It is hard to consider two being many, and it is surprising you are so easily giving faith to accounts written years later!
Quote:
Pniak repoprted "two engined aircraft" from a distance of appr. 2 000 meters and before he ever started! He then fought against these aircraft and was credited with a ... Ju 87! So he claimed a two engined Ju 87.
By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87, and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft. I do not care, they might have been He 111s, but I am certain they were not Ju 87s.
Quote:
Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s.
I believe you have not heard of sections of three of Me 109s, so what?
Quote:
No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2.
Was not the study of Trenel written post-war for USAAF intelligence? Anyway, it is a very simple story of the Polish Campaign, and it cannot be considered definite. I know, I have read it.
Quote:
Joint formations of Me 109/Me 110 did not fly any single mission for one bomber formation (strenght 9 - 30 aircraft) in Poland 1939. I am very sorry that you do not know that.
If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.
  #36  
Old 15th October 2006, 13:11
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Quote:
Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here.
No, I wrote something about the book and the way the autor works. In fact its me who can not defend against personal attacks Mr. Cynk made in Polish paper Lotnictwo Wojskowe 5/2005. His article is full of lies and manipulations about my person. Such behaviour among airwar historians is scandalous. I never did such things against any autor.


Quote:
It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you.
Nobody spoke about a "direct cooperation". It was the "problem" of Polish publishers only to bring the data together. Mr. Cynk disregarded German records completely (sorry, almost completely - he brought in his own interpretation (sic!!) of GQM records). Without German records the book is almost worthless. This is not only my opinion, but of many Polish historians of the "younger generation".
Why? I showed one example above describing 5th Sept. and the mission flown by 112 eskadra. Next example: according to Cynk German records are confirming (?!) the loss of a He 111 of I./KG 152 shot down by 123 eskadra over Warsaw on the 5th. In fact this bomber was shot down 100 km`s away from Warsaw by Polish AA. Another example: 6 He 111`s of II./LG 1 shot down by Polish fighters in the morning of 1th Sept. Pretendendly confirmed by German documents (sic!?). But in fact such documents do not exist. The existing documents are confirming the loss of 1 He 111 + 1 He 111 belly landed (sic!). As well in GQM records, known to Mr. Cynk (sic!).

Quote:
By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87
2 engined aircraft at a height of appr. 2000 m. Pniak saw 7 airplanes from the ground, before he started. After he started there appears nothing more about 2 engined aircraft. But 3 (!!) aircraft "of the same type" attacked him. IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1c-15 (also Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..., page 242).
From the beginning of the war German Bf 109`s and Bf 110`s flew in sections of 2 (Rotte). This is not a secret. You can find this information in my book Jagdflieger (appendixes, experiences of German units).
As I wrote earlier Polish combat reports are useless regarding particular German aircraft types. German records are not confirming what you would like to have.

Quote:
and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft.
Only Pniak`s combat report, right?


Quote:
If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.
It`s only your stubbornness. Even in original Polish documents you will find 3 P.11 only which participated in the earlier combat against Ju 87`s. Por. Pisarek had then to forceland his badly damaged aircraft and exactly this is described in the records of III./StG 2. In the latter combat 13 PZL took part and it is logical that I./LG 2 only then could have claimed 3 of them.

Quote:
Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.
I don`t believe it. You often are referring to Polish documents which in fact do not exist. So I repeat my request: please show me the document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra in the midday of 5th Sept.

Cheers.
Marius
  #37  
Old 15th October 2006, 18:16
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Robert,

This is what I have at present:

600 Squadron, Manston Attack on Waalhaven airfield:

Blenheim IF L1335. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. S/L J. M. Wells, Cpl B. A. Kidd killed. Sgt. Davis captured. Aircraft BQ*R lost.

Blenheim IF L1401. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. W. H. Echlin killed. F/O J. H. C. Rowe captured. Aircraft BQ*K lost.

Blenheim IF L1514. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O C. R Moore, Cpl. L. D. Isaacs killed. Aircraft BQ*W lost.

Blenheim IF L1515. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O M. H. Anderson, LAC H. C. W. Hawkins killed. Aircraft BQ*L lost.

Blenheim IF. Crashlanded in Holland damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. C. Haine, P/O M. Kramer unhurt. Aircraft BQ*N lost.
These aircraft were all fitted with IFF, and the prospect of the device falling into enemy hands caused much concern at HQ Fighter Command.

Blenheim IF. Returned damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O T. N. Hayes, Cpl. G. H. Holmes unhurt. Aircraft BQ*O damaged.

604 Squadron, Northolt Escort for No.110 Sqdn to Waalhaven:

Blenheim IF L1517. Forced-landed on beach at Scheveningen 5.30 p.m.

If anyone can add anything to this I would be grateful.

  #38  
Old 15th October 2006, 18:39
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Thnk You very mutch, Peter!!!!

I can add only a little info about combat with Blenheims on 10th May, that I know:

Quote:
I/ZG 1 intercepted six Blenheim IVs of RAF 600 Squadron over Walhaven airfield, five were shot down with only one escaping. Falck describes his experiences as he tries to bag the one that escaped.
I was on patrol in the area of the Hague when I spotted a Blenheim and tried to catch him. I chased him around church spires, around sand dunes, around trees, round and round we went only 10-15 meters high. I was right behind him but couldn't get a shot at him. When he broke for the open sea I thought 'Now I'll get him!' I began closing in on him but after a few kilometers he began circling a steamship at only a few meters above the waves. Round ana round the ship and 1 couldn't get a shot at him. Finally he again broke for the open sea toward England but now 1 was low on fuel and had fo break off my chase. The last I saw o( him he was skimming the waves as last as he could toward home. That Englishman was some pilot.
And this:

Quote:
10 May 1940 Oblt. Werner Streib shot down Blenheim bomber, his first and last day victory. I./ZG 1 pilots intercepted a formation of 6 Blenheims, and only 1 could avoid death. All rest was shot down.
Is it possible to find names of other I./ZG 1 pilots???? IMHO one of them was Ehle (he had 3 daylight victroryes with I./ZG 1, untill he was transferred in I./NJG 1, and I know only about 2 of his victoryes)

With best wishes, Evgenij.
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  #39  
Old 15th October 2006, 19:22
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

When a thread has developed into an argument between two members, I must ask those two members to conduct the argument in private or at least change the tone of said argument so it can continue as a civilized discussion.

Please take note of my second request.
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  #40  
Old 15th October 2006, 20:08
rob van den nieuwendijk rob van den nieuwendijk is offline
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?

Hello all,

On 10 May 40 because of the heavy Ju 52 transport movements near Waalhaven/Rotterdam 600 Squadron detailed 6 Blenheims IF to this target. At low level the airfield was attacked and one Ju 52 of KGr zbV 172 was set on fire.

At the very same time a formation of Ju 52s headed for Waalhaven. These were escorte by Me 110's of 2. and 3./ZG 1. Very heavy dogfights started - only one Blenheim (piloted by F/O Hayes) managed to escape and return. The others were shot down by the Me110's.

The claims were made by:
Oblt Werner Streib 1
Fw Paul Gildner 1
Uffz Müller 2
Oblt Möller 1

Other sources also mention Leutnant Knacke with one claim - he flew in the Schwarm of Streib, Gildner and Müller.

Regards
Rob
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