Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East

Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East Please use this forum to discuss the Air War in the Far East.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11th July 2007, 20:29
Capt. Lou Capt. Lou is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6
Capt. Lou is on a distinguished road
Japanese Records

I have been reading here and there about various authors and the AVG as regards the AVG's combat record.

I have never seen any photocopies, etc. of any Japanese records. Maintenance records, operations, assets, sick list, personnel lists and the like.

Does anyone actually have such records? If so, I would love to see them.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th July 2007, 00:41
rldunn rldunn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 83
rldunn is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

Captain

Some of the type records you mnetion (full or partial text) can be found in ATIS (Allied Translator and Interrogator Service , SWPA) or other (PACMIRS, JICPOA) translations. ATIS is available in hard copy at US and Australian Archives (possibly others, MacArthur) and microform at various sites. No good index exists; be prepared to spend hundres (or more hours) exploiting the material. In addition intercepted radio messages also provide some such info (e.g. RG 38 'Crane' documents). ATIS records not translated were returned to Japan 5-0+ yrs ago.

RLD
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th July 2007, 08:08
Capt. Lou Capt. Lou is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6
Capt. Lou is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

Thank you for your kind assistance in locating the appropriate research paths.

I wish only to see photocopies, facsimiles, or if possible, the original document as generated and issued in the field.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th July 2007, 01:02
Oldpilot's Avatar
Oldpilot Oldpilot is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25
Oldpilot is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

I wish only to see photocopies, facsimiles, or if possible, the original document as generated and issued in the field.

Only? I have been researching the AVG Flying Tigers for a bit more than twenty years, and I have never seen an original AVG document!

The Japanese records, such as they are, are of course a) located in Japan and b) written in Japanese. You can apply to the National Diet Library for information on where to begin, but you will have to bring your own translator!

Accessible in the United States, but still requiring a translator, are such books as HINOKI Yohei, Hayabusa sentotai cho Kato (Tokyo: Kojinsha, 1987) and Japan Defense Agency, Nanpo shinko rikugun koku sakusen (Tokyo: Asagumo Shimbunsha, 1970). The first is a memoir by a 64th Sentai pilot who several times met the AVG in combat; the second is a history of air operations in Southeast Asia from best Japanese sources.

If you require English-language versions, then there are the ATIS documents that Rick Dunn mentions; various U.S. Army monographs, notably Tanaka Masa, "Burma Air Operations Record"; and a British intelligence study, "Japanese Air Losses, Burma Operation" available at the (British) National Archives.

Finally, there are the more popular histories, including my Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers (HarperCollins 2007) and Christopher Shores et al, Bloody Shambles, especially volumes 1 and 2 (Grub Street 1992, 1993). In a class by itself is HATA Ikuhiko, et al. Japanese Army Air Force Fighter Units and Their Aces, 1931 to 1945(London: Grub Street, 2002), a translation (more or less) of a Japanese book similarly titled.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13th July 2007, 20:12
jaepton jaepton is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3
jaepton is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

I think the original posters idea was to prove overclaiming and/or under reporting of losses by the Japanese to defend the AVg claims by showing Japanese records are non-existant or made up. Also to show AVG bashing by some writers and researchers by using these records. If you watch the AVG forum you will see a strong tendancy to attack anyone who questions the AVG and it's 'record'. They stand on 'we have our records and they've been proven correct by many historians so any other records are lies'.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13th July 2007, 21:02
Oldpilot's Avatar
Oldpilot Oldpilot is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25
Oldpilot is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

It's very easy to show overclaiming by Japanese pilots, given that they were among the most enthusiastic over-claimers of WW2. Alas, the AVG buffs then turn about and say, 'Well, they lied about how many planes they shot down, so they must have lied about how many planes they lost'. The notion that you look to an air force's records to see how many planes we lost, and to the opposition's to see how many we shot down, seems utterly to escape them. (As does the fact that overclaiming is not at all the same thing as lying.)

That so many Japanese records were lost or deliberately destroyed in 1945 of course fuels this argument. That Allied records were likewise lost (for example, those of 67 Squadron upon its retreat to India) doesn't seem however to invalidate Allied loss records!

It was the AVG's good or bad luck to regularly meet one very famous and one fairly famous fighter group, the 64th and 77th Sentais. There are several books by 64th Sentai veterans, and you could hardly ask for a better job of reconstructing a group's war history than Rick Dunn has done with "Double Lucky" on the Warbird's Forum.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14th July 2007, 10:23
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

Hi Dan

Nice to 'meet' you after all these turbulent years!

For what its worth, I concur with your conclusions regarding this posting and previous.

Keep up the good work

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 4th November 2007, 06:10
RCheung RCheung is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
RCheung is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese Records

Quote:
The Japanese records, such as they are, are of course a) located in Japan and b) written in Japanese. You can apply to the National Diet Library for information on where to begin, but you will have to bring your own translator!
Dan, you'd have better luck going directly to the Japanese Defence Department Archives at Ebisu in Tokyo. There is a card index where you can look up reports for specific units during a given period. The archivists will bring out the reports you request and you can look through them yourself. Photocopies take a long time and didgital cameras were not allowed.

Problem is, looking through the card index, there are many gaps. JNAF records tend to be in much better shape. Interestingly, the guards at the gate understood English but the people running the archives did not!

So, it is a good idea to have a translator along.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help identify japanese pilot Hiroshi Kasai - attack Pearl Harbour Adriano Baumgartner Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 6 31st July 2007 17:18
9th AF Maintenance Records markjsheppard Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 12th October 2006 19:06
Japanese Effectiveness Against B-29 Raids Jim Oxley Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 15 8th August 2006 20:31
Detailed loss records 1944 Andreas Brekken Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 20th November 2005 20:16
Japanese Loss Records - Fact Or Myth?? Jim Oxley Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 5 9th April 2005 21:38


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net