Trying to ID codes for a Do17Z of AufklarStaffel zbV of Luftflotte 2 which crashed in Belgium on 25.5.40

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I'm trying to properly code several photos of the Do17 of Uffz. Hans Metzger that fatally crashed into a house on Groenstraat in Mouscron, Belgium, on 25.5.40. It clearly has a white or possibly yellow "H," for it's individual code, but the other codes aren't clear. It may have a unit code of 5K, which would mean that it was borrowed from KG3, but this is far from certain. Does anyone know what the ID code of that unit should be? Does anyone have clear enough photos of the wreckage to determine what the full code of the aircraft was? The 4th letter might also be an "H," but this is far from certain. Don't cite the information on the loss in TBoFrT&N, as this is one of the rare errors as to location in that publication.

Thanx

[Pieter H]

Hi Larry,

As always you start interesting discussions!

To start, I have a picture from an eBay offering that clearly shows the 5K+H? as being the plane that hit the houses, almost certainly the ones in Moeskroen/Mouscron. The fourth letter is unfortunately not readable due to a big dent in the fuselage.

Regarding time and date:
In the book "Mei 1940 boven Belgie" by De Decker and Roba the crash in Moeskroen by the crew Mertgen, Kipple and Schorn is clearly dated May 20. Time 13.30. Unit 3(F)/Aufkl.Gr.Ob.d.L. like Peter Cornwell, so that seems to be consistent.

But indeed, on a web page (in French) on Mouscron/Luingne in May 1940
http://membres.lycos.fr/luingne/page...e_mai_1940.htm
it is clearly stated that this happened on May 25,all other details being the same. Originally I tended to follow the two first sources, but I admit this last one- being local - should be very convincing.

Yet, also in the Volksbund data the date for the Mertgen crew is May 20.

So:
- the date of death of the Mertgen crew is May 20
- for the date May 25 the names of Moegelin, Mertger and Steinhagen (according Peter Cornwell the crew of the A.z.b.V. Luftflotte 2) are not in the volksbund list. But Dorowski is.
- the code of the aircraft suggests 1./KG3

The rest is unclear.
Looking forward to further details.

Regards, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Would someone be willing to translate the Mouscron story listed in the previous post into English for me?

Thanks,

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Pieter,

The De Dekker/Roba offering (which I followed) has been proved an unreliable source I'm afraid. The revised entry for this event on May 25, 1940, currently stands as follows:

AufklStaffel zbV. Luftflotte 2 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by AA fire during a reconnaissance sortie and crashed onto houses at 115-117 Groenstraat in Mouscron 10.15 a.m. BO Lt Herbert Mögelin, BM Fw Günter Dorowski, FF Uffz Hans Metzger, and BF Uffz Johann Steinhagen all killed. Aircraft a 100% write-off.
The bodies of the crew were subsequently moved from a field grave near the crash site to the regional cemetery at Deinze, Belgium.

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi Larry,

I'll try to translate today the text on the website.

To follow by e-mail.

Best regards

Luc

[Larry Hickey]

Luc,

Actually, I was thinking about you when I wrote that in the wee hours of the night. Please send that via my regular email address and THANKS!

Regards,

Larry

[Pieter H]

Hi Peter,

So we now agree on the May 25 AStzbV Luftflotte 2 aircraft that crashed in Moeskroen.
Two questions left:
- where does the aircraft code come from?
- to which unit belonged the Mertgen crew on May 20?

Regards, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

A number of members of the Eagles Over Europe (EOE) Working Group (WG) are currently engaged in a careful reassessment of the entries for German Do17s and He111s that crashed in Belgium and France during May-June, 1940. As a result of new information, much of it from Peter Taghon, and the careful study of a number of photos, Peter Cornwell is making a number of revisions, additions and corrections to the data base presented in his recent book TBoFrT&N (The Battle of France Then & Now). One of them is the aircraft in the second part of your question, which is L2+MS. I'll let him provide his latest update to that entry, but we do know where it came down and it was not Moeskroen. Peter T. has met and interviewed one of the surviving crewmen from this plane.

A note of caution, you must be very careful about using the DeDecker-Roba book on Luftwaffe losses in Belgium as many of the locations are wrong. This book was produced quite some time ago, and much new and more reliable information is now available.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Pieter,

Thanks to Peter Taghon the revised entry for May 20, 1940, is now as follows:

3.(F)/Aufkl.Gr.Ob.d.L Dornier Do215. Intercepted south of Kortrijk during photo-reconnaissance sortie to Lille and shot down by F/L Wight, P/O Atkinson, and P/O Sizer of No. 213 Squadron. Also attacked by Sgt Whitby of No. 79 Squadron prior to belly-landing at de Duytshoek in Wannegem-Lede, north of Ooike, 7.45 a.m. (Beo) Lt Eberhard Kipple badly wounded – died same day, (Bf) Uffz Kurt Mertgen, and (Bm) Gefr Heinz Schorn killed, (Ff) Uffz Erich Luther ordered to bale out and captured unhurt. Aircraft L2+MS a write-off.

You queried the aircraft codes ? If you mean the Moeskroen crash on May 25, then the codes mentioned by Larry come from his interpretation of photos and they remain unconfirmed at present. If, however, you mean the aircraft above these are cited in A.I.1(k) Report No.130/1940 held at NA(PRO) in Kew.

Kind Regards.

[Pieter H]

Hi Larry & Peter,

Sorry for the late reply; travelling too much.
First thanks for the update on the May 20 3.(F)/Aufkl.Gr.Ob.d.L. case.

My question re. codes is still referring to the May 25 A.St.z.b.V Luftflotte 2 crash in Moeskroen. Is there any logical explanation for the use of the 5K+H? code of KG3?
Rosch "Luftwaffe Codings and Markings" does not list this Staffel, which makes me suspect it was more an ad hoc entity than a formal unit, and probably used aircraft from different units under the Luftflotte. But this all my speculation. Any input?

Regards, Pieter