Can you identify a german aircraft by its main engine data plate??

[merkle]

Hi All,

I was wondering were i should start, and indeed if it is at all possible ??

I have a Jumo 211 data plate, I bought many moons ago, with provenance, which has turned out to be untrue !

Very annoyed about it, but now wonder if there is a way i can trace the aircraft through the engine number ??

it crashed on in the uk, and was dug up decades ago , and now I just dont know if there is a way of me tracking down just what this plate came from ??

Can anyone out there give me any leads to find out, where to look , etc

the plate reads Gerat-Nr (damaged) then -211 H-1
below this it says Werk-Nr MZM H-1/579

obviously it has the Junkers logo, and factory details on it too, Bauart:moterenbau addressed nr Dessau,

and at bottom of plate hersteller: jukers flugzueg etc, magedeburg.

[stephen f. polyak]

Hi,

Engine plates are a bit outside my lane, but for what it's worth...

Given what you describe, indeed there was a Jumo 211, including, apparently, an H model. The He111, Ju87 and Ju88 were among its notable employers, and there are others.

I have had a few engine plates: Argus, D-Benz/M-Benz, BMW and Jumo. These have included what I believe to be main plates. What you describe does not quite "match" what I am familiar with - the letter-number combination Werk-Nr seems an odd form. I would expect numbers only. Is it in fact a main plate or main number; perhaps other TOCH members can verify? Could the "MZM" part of the Werk-Nr be a submaker's code? If so, mzm is: Gebr. Schniewind A.-G., Weberei Neviges/Rhld.

As to your main question: I know that sometimes at least, captured aircraft evaluation reports did list both airplane and engine main Werk-Nr. However, I don't think that was absolute practice. As for such details in German factory or operational records, I do not know. So even with a proper, certain Werk-Nr, it's a long shot, and if that's not a proper number, it's no shot at all.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time that the "provenance" given an airplane relic has turned out to fall amongst fantasy, the latest retold version of what once was truth, and a bold lie.

Good luck,
Steve

[Andy Saunders]

In theory you might be able to, if the wreck was inspected by RAF Air Intelligence. In theory, then you could find the aircraft identity by working back from there. But it would mean trawling through a great many AI(g) reports. This is because RAF Intelligence officers generally noted the engine numbers when they found them. However, in your case one assumes that the engine was buried and thus the RAF Intelligence officer would have never found the number. In any event, you say you have the plate with the number, although it is the case that the engine numbers were repeated elsewhere (eg painted in white on the crankcase) and so, again in theory, that number could have been reported and noted somewhere. However, you are probably on a hiding to nothing sadly. In any case, I have to say that the plate you have (whilst related to a Jumo 211) does not sound like the main engine plate to me. I would have expected a much longer engine number than any of the numbers you quote. Can you post a scan or photo?

Luftwaffe reports mostly had the aircraft Werke Nummer, but never the engine numbers as far as I'm aware.

I don't think your chances are very high.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello.

In theory you could also get the engine numbers the following way:

After an aircraft went missing, shot down, lost the unit holding it would turn over the paperwork to the Quartermaster office of the Luftflotte.

Also - any spares etc was to be sent to the a given location. I have seen some of these documents, and in these the engine number(s) was included.

Of course - 99.99% of these documents have most probably been destroyed - but if they were present you would find your engine number in there.

Regards,
Andreas B

[stephen f. polyak]

Here are some engine plates: Jumo 211B, Jumo 211F1, DB 603 & Jumo 211. I firmly believe all five are main plates, and all have a rather long, numeric only, Werk Nr. (The number on the 211F-1 plate may be preceded by an "M".)

I also show the plate on a Jumo fuel injector unit - part of an engine. Note that the Werk Nr. entry lists both letters (LEH) and numbers (496). This makes me think of the plate that is the subject of this thread.

The Jumo 211 plate (the one below the DB 603 plate) is coded "jfs" for Junkers Flugzeug- u. Motorenwerke A.-G., Motorenbau, Zweigwerk Kassel. Perhaps the "TP" in the lower right circle indicates tropical?

[Andy Saunders]

This sounds more like Merkle's plate. This (the first image) came my way a while back but I do not believe it to be a main engine plate.

I believe that the two plates at the bottom in the collection of five plates are the two main engine plates.

(Steve: again I see TP, and this was certainly from a Trop. Ju 88. Although I don't know sufficient about tropically operated 88s I would suppose that, at the very least, they would have tropical dust/sand filters and the like)

PS.....Steve, a book on German data plates by your good self is long overdue!!!