British / American against Russia in 1945

[Jon]

I read a book a while back about the battle for Berlin and in it it states that near the very end of the war their were several incidents of supposed Allies..British and Russians actually exchanging shots with each other in very tense situations, not friendly fire but deliberate actions,fortunately the officers on both sides appear to have stopped it from getting out of hand.
Did any US or British aircraft ever trade blows with Soviet fighters or bombers just before the end of the war ? They must have come across each other on occasions?

[marsyao]

Jon, there were a few "friendly fire" incidence between USAAF and VVS from Jan 1945, but none of these were intentional, before the cold war began, the relationship between common soldiers of Red army and Western allies was generally good

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Agree, I doubt any English, Canadian, French or American soldier was seeing the Soviet as enemies in April-May 1945. Poles were maybe not thinking the same but I don't think they met Soviet troops in Germany.

On the other hand, two armies attacking in opposite directions without coordination will always hit friendly troops coming the other way. And then in combat conditions, battle vs "friendly troops" may last a while before both sides realized what is happening.

[Jon]

Thanks for the responses, The shots fired in the book were definate actions and remember it was a big fear of the Brits and Americans in 1945 that the Russians would just continue on through Germany into France pushing us back into the sea. Powerfull as Britain and the US were in 1945 i think the Russians would have managed this , remember 70% of German combat losses were inflicted on the Eastern front !

Indeed some peope feel that our bombing of Dresden when the war was almost finished was partly ( or totally) to show the Russians who were only 50 miles away and going to get their first, that RAF bomber command by 1945 could level a whole city in one night....and make them think twice about attacking their former Allies.

[ArtieBob]

Being old enough to have been around at the end of WWII and with Father, Uncle, cousins, etc., in the military, I do not think that we in the USA feared USSR in 1945. In fact, the popular opinion in the USA was probably that we could have beaten anybody at that point (not that this was correct, but that is how we felt). As for the bombing of Dresden, based on how we felt about Germany and the Germans, the only reason not to bomb any German targets was to put our aircrews at any unnecessary risk at that late point of the war. Looking back with over 60 years of hindsight, things look somewhat different now. But when by 1945, we heard of millions and millions of non-combatant civilian casulties in the European war caused by Nazi germany (which all through the war appeared to have the support of the German civilian population), torture, slavery, looting, etc., there was not a great deal of sympathy for any Germans and the thousands of civilian bombing casulties were only payback for what the Nazi bombers had inflicted on civilianpopulations in other nations. As I say, this may not have been the proper attitude, but that is how I felt as a boy growing up in the USA during WWII.

[edwest]

The Russians were considered the new enemy even before the last shots of World War II were fired. U.S. intelligence teams and British were right behind the troops after the landing in Normandy. B.I.O.S. and C.I.O.S. teams often competed for the same "targets." Scientists, engineers, documents, patents, aircraft, other military equipment, and entire factories were carted off. One of the main reasons being to deny them to the Russians. The Russians were the only military threat to be taken seriously at the time. And there was a concern that they would continue to advance into western Europe in spite of any agreements.

See here for a description of a British plan called Operation Unthinkable. http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/church.htm



Ed

[Jon]

Thanks for the Link Ed.

I am sure that the Russians would have swept Britain and America from Europe with ease. Just look at the number of tanks they had by 1945, all superb and very capable of defeating the poor Shermans used as the main allied battle tank. And as for numbers of men....well Russia i am afraid would have won that battle too. I think our only strong area would have been in the air where we would perhaps have been the strongest. It certainly was a good job they stopped in Berlin !!!! Again the RAF bombing of Dresden to me, was aimed more at Russia to view as what could happen to her rather than a major war winning raid....More of a stop the war carrying on with a new enemy raid. Lets face it the Lancaster by 1945 in Europe was the only bomber able to end a city in one night, with a bomb load more than twice that of the B17. Great aircraft unless you were on the receiving end !!

[Ruy Horta]

I thought the raid on Dresden and the strategic planning behind it were well documented. It was the simple culmination of a strategy and also the basic running out of other worthwhile targets that lead to its destruction, not a warning to the Soviets.

Churchill, Harris and the main RAF histories all give the same explanation.

Isn't this a little speculative without any hard evidence?

[Jon]

Yes i agree it is a little speculative. I have now read this in several publications and whilst Dresden certainly was full of worthy targets, maybe they would have been more worthy in 1943 or 44 ? remember Dresden had not had any major raids for the whole war, that was why it was full with civilians to escape the bombing of other German cities, some German soldiers even told their families to flee to Dresden as they felt the Allies were saving it to be the new Capital after the war. Don't get me wrong sat in my comfortable armchair 60 years after the event i am 100% in favour of bomber command and the raids they did but i still think their was more to this raid than "simply" another city to destroy and bring the end of the war a few days closer. Sadly we shall perhaps never know.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am not awared of any deliberate Allied attacks on Soviets but certainly the war was very close. It is hard to say who could win it but I have no doubt that Red Army was not as strong as it is tended to believe and Western Allies not as weak as it is claimed. Judging the result it must be remembered availability of human resources, industry as well as both communists in the West and anti-Soviet underground in the East. Having in mind that major Polish forces were destroyed in about 1947 - after 3 years of combats - I believe it could have been a major threat if properly supported from the free world.