Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th April 2005, 17:38
Monaco Monaco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 100
Monaco is on a distinguished road
bombers at dieppe

hello,
for a research about aerial combat over Dieppe on 19.8.42 I´m looking for the bomber and recce losses of the following units:
Ju.88s I.-III./KG.6 (or maybe the former KüFlGr.106, I./KG.77), I./KG.1, I./KG.60
He.111 of III./KG.53
Recce units:
3.(F)/122, 1.(F)/123 and 3.(F)/123

The losses of JG.2, JG.26, II./KG.40 and KG.2 I allready have if anybody´s interested in.

Maybe someone can help?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th April 2005, 18:44
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,491
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

I have no losses for KG 6, KG1, KG 60 nor any recce units. 11/KG 4 suffered a He 111 damaged, III/KG 53 suffered one damaged, one destroyed, 1/106 lost a Ju 88 over the UK (as did 3/106 which lost 2). Finally, I/KG 77 suffered one destroyed and one damaged
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 23rd April 2005, 10:45
Monaco Monaco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 100
Monaco is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

Thanks a lot, Chris,

so when I counted right Luftwaffe lost on 19.08.42 over Dieppe (plus UK) 19 Fw.190A of JG.2, 6 FW.190A of JG.26, 2 Bf.109G of JG.2, 1 Bf.109G of JG.26 (= 28 fighters), 12 Do.217 of KG.2, 3 Do.217 of II./KG.40, 4 Ju.88s of KFlGr.106 and KG.77 plus the single He.111 of KG.53 (= 20 bombers). These are total losses excluding damaged aircraft (are the figures correct?). It would be interesting to know more about the locations/ times where/when the Ju.88 and He.111 losses occured.

Greetings

Monaco
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23rd April 2005, 11:39
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,491
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

No times are given for the losses and to match who got whom has not been possible apart from the UK losses. The KG 4 ac came down at Calleville near Rouen; one of the KG 77 losses came down at Forges-Les-Eaux, the other at Azourville; the 106 ac came down at Boniface Down, Isle of Wight, 4 miles SE of Selsey Bill and West Dean respectively
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24th April 2005, 16:00
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,021
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Losses are not far from that..

That is better more to follow

The KG2 in the area

The last bombers units
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25th April 2005, 17:57
Monaco Monaco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 100
Monaco is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

Thank you folks for the support,

with this data it will be possible to verify the RAF claims in more detail. They made claims for: 47-27-76 Fw.190s, 3-1-2 Bf.109s, 33-8-46 Do.217s, 8-3-11 Ju.88s and 5 He.111s. As allready known (Franks, Caldwell) there was much overclaiming which is no wonder in the conditions prevailing (many aircraft in a limited space at the same time, whirling dogfights, German and Allied AA fire, smoke, shot down aircraft ploughing into sea etc.), but it must be noted that the Luftwaffe claims were more accurate even when some sources (Franks) notice that of about 106 RAF aircraft lost 30 have been lost to Flak and 4 to bomber return fire (I personally doubt the flak loss figures). According to Woods Luftwaffe submitted claims for 103 Spitfires (5 of them attributed to return fire from Do.217 crews of II./KG.40, 1 to a recce pilot of 1.(F)/123), 1 Hurricane, 4 Mustangs, 1 P-39 (almost certainly a 31 FG USAAF Spitfire), 1 Hampden (in fact a 418 Sq. RCAF Boston) and 1 Blenheim – the great bunch of them by JG.2 and JG.26.
10.(Jabo)/JG.2 is credited with the destruction of 1 destroyer (according to Goss & Caldwell: HMS Berkerley) and 2 Landing craft sunk, 1 destroyer (HMS Calpe ?), 2 trawlers and 2 landing craft damaged. RAF HSL 147 was sunk at 1503 6 miles from the Somme Estuary (Probably by Ju.88), HSL 122 & HSL 123 were sunk by Fw.190s in the afternoon around 1650 (probably of the Jabo-Staffeln of JG.2 & JG.26), HSL 177 was damaged by strafing (p.m.) and ML 495 claimed 1 Ju.88 damaged (Franks).
Both air forces showed great spirit and readiness, for example S/L Pete Wickham (CO 111 Sq. RAF) flew 5 missions to Dieppe, Uffz. Mayer (6./JG.26) made 9 flights. The outstanding performers of the day were without doubt Ofw. Josef Wurmheller (1./JG.2) with 7 victories (No.53-59 Kacha AOL; No.54-60 according to Franks) in four sorties, Oblt. Siegfried Schnell (9./JG.2) with 5 victories (No.67-71), Oblt. Kurt Ebersberger (4./JG.26) with 4 victories (No.25-28),Oblt. Fülbert Zink (2./JG.26) with 3 victories (No.24-26) and Ofw. Emil Babenz (2./JG.26) with 3 victories (No.19-21).
To distribute the losses/ claims of both sides in this „Greatest Air Battle“ will be a sysiphos task and never to be solved with 100% accuracy, but some attributions can be made.

Regards

Monaco
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20th May 2017, 06:37
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

Hi Monaco,

can you please share losses of Luftwaffe bomber units during this day?

Thanks

Faenor
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd May 2017, 21:37
Monaco Monaco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 100
Monaco is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

From Baalke:
Of KG.2 63 Do.217s attack the landing ships at Dieppe; 14 are s/d or destroyed (total losses); 12 are damaged (I. Gruppe: 4-4, II. Gruppe: 7-2 -> withdrawn for replenishment and recuperation; III. Gruppe: 3-6). After the day´s fighting KG.2 has only 12 crews available for action (Stab: 1; I./KG.2: 3, II./KG.2: 3; III./KG.2: 5). The crews reported the following successes:
09.42: 6 (8) Do.217s attack the invasion ships with 24 SC500 from 800-2.200m: hits on 1 destroyer (Oblt. Hankamer, 4./KG.2, Do.217 damaged in combat with several Spitfires), 1 transport (~1500 grt) and several landing crafts; 2 Do.217 of 5./KG.2 lost.
?: 3 (5) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 10.00) attack 3 destroyers with 12 SC500 from 800-1.500m, but scored no hits.; 1 Do.217 lost 6km S Dieppe; 1 Do.217 crash-landed at Abbeville, 1 Do.217 (Fw. Handel & crew) escaped 5 Spitfires.
?: 5 (10) Do.217s (III./KG.2; t/o 10.37) attack the invasion ships with 16 SC500 from 600-1.800m: Only one hit on the forecastle of a destroyer; 2 Do.217s of 7. Staffel (Oblt. Hackel and Fw. Elias) had to make emergency dropps, because of Spitfire attacks (1 KIA, 1 WIA); 3 Do.217s and crews are missed over the sea.
?: 4 (4) Do.217s (4./KG.2; t/o 11.54) to attack the invasion ships; 3 s/d and 1 crash-landed with severe damage at Abbeville.
?: 3 (5) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 12.30) attack 1 destroyer and 1 freighter of the invasion ships with 12 SC500 from 700m; Oblt. v. Manowarda & crew score a near miss on the destroyer, the other two crews are s/d by Spitfires.
12.35: 2 (2) Do.217s (t/o: 12.01) report 1 bigger transport, 2 formations of MTB and LCI 5km off Dieppe whilst directly on the beach no enemy vessels were sighted.
14.20: 3 Do.217s of III./KG.2 t/o, but return from Dieppe when no enemy is sighted.
? : 3 (6) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 14.22) attack the invasion ships off Dieppe: one dropps it´s bombs on landingships from 1.800m, one from 2.000m and the third attacks the mole from 200m; results unknown, because of artificial smoke; 3 other abort due to fighter interception and record 1 Spitfire and 1 Curtiss s/d.
? : 5 (9) Do.217s (II./KG.2; t/o 15.08) attack the invasion ships off Dieppe and drop 64 SD50 and 4 SC500: landingships are near missed, one transport directly hit by 3 SC500 from one crew; 2 Do.217 see nothing and abort; 2 Do.217 s/d and crashland at Dieppe and Turnhoult.
?: 3 Do.217 (II./KG.2, Oblt. Hankamer, Ofw. Brendebach & Ofw. Moese t/o 17.15) against the retiring british ships in the Channel.
?: 1 (4) Do.217 (I./KG.2 t/o 18.00) against Portsmouth harbour: one bombs with 3 SC500 from 2.500m; 2 abort, because of lacking cloud cover, 1 because of fighter interception.
?: 1 (3) Do.217 (III./KG.2 t/o 19.00) against Portsmouth harbour: one bombs with 4 SC500 from 400m; 2 abort, because of lacking cloud cover.

For losses of other units I think there was another thread...

Cheers

Monaco
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd May 2017, 23:27
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 6,491
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: bombers at dieppe

I have a complete list of bomber losses but what is your interest?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Twin-engined Bombers Jim Oxley Books and Magazines 2 17th September 2005 05:32
Theatre Markings for bombers stationed in Norway. Modeldad Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 12th August 2005 17:27
Axis fighters lost to Allied bombers Mifletz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 6th August 2005 03:53
RAF bombers lost to RAF bombers Mifletz Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 28th July 2005 17:12
German unit around Dieppe Stephane Muret Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 24th March 2005 12:02


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net