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  #1  
Old 16th December 2010, 01:59
mystex mystex is offline
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Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

does anybody know which B-17s took off from there on February 4, 1943 for a bombing mission to Hamm. I only managed to find the pilots. A device I already know .... B-17F "Texas Bronco" 41-24589 & B-17F "Pennsylvania Polka" 41-24544. Now even the remaining 3.

Rene
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Old 18th December 2010, 14:51
mystex mystex is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

nowbody nows this.....??
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Old 18th December 2010, 18:55
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Hello Rene,

From "the Mighty Eighth War Diary" page 37.
91BG -
Despatched -17
Effective - 16
Target: Emden I/A(L)
Tonnage - 151 x 500 GP
E/A 5-2-0
Losses - 2
MIA 20.
Remarks: 1 91BG B17 and 44BG B24 which aborted dropped 22 x 500GP on a convoy.
From "Losses of the 8th & 9th Air Forces" vol 2 page 72/74.
Puzzle as Target for both lost B17's is given as HAMM but due to weather changed to Emden I/A.
Was this change made after take off, as HAMM was the 2BW 44th (15 a/c) & 93rd (6 a/c) BG's B24's Target according to "diary" ?
Both BG''s turned back before Dutch coast. No losses.
Also from "Cliff Bishop's book.
A list of the 91st BG's B17's so possible to eliminate.

All for now
Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 18th December 2010 at 19:28.
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Old 18th December 2010, 19:07
shooshoobaby shooshoobaby is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Rene -
#42-5225 OR-S " Stormy Weather "
91st BG , 323d Sq.
Feb. 4th , 1943 Hydraulics Shot out. Landing at Bassingbourne ,
Ran off the end of the Runway.
FYI - 91st BG was Led by Col. Wray w/ Capt. Morgan Crew
in " Memphis Belle ". It was the First time that Twin-Engine
German A/C dropped Fragmentation Bombs on B-17 Formations.
Mike
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Old 18th December 2010, 22:48
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Trying to link infos from here : http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/323rd1-1to3-30-43.html
& there : http://www.bombsqd323rd.com/airplanes.html

Wild guess :
Lt. Birdsong's crew : probably "Delta Rebel no 2"
Lt. McCarty's crew : possibly "Stupntakit"
Capt. Bishop's crew : ????

Wilder guess :
Perhaps in the MACRs of "Texas Bronco" & "Pennsylvania Polka" are mentioned the name & plane # of the eye-witnesses.
NO they DON'T ! : http://heroesoffreedom.nl/lostlist.html

Quote:
#42-5225 OR-S " Stormy Weather "
91st BG , 323d Sq.
Feb. 4th , 1943 Hydraulics Shot out. Landing at Bassingbourne ,
Ran off the end of the Runway.
Happened on Feb. 4th or on March 4th ?

Last edited by udf_00; 18th December 2010 at 23:11. Reason: ending a wild goose chase
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Old 20th December 2010, 02:06
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Hi,
From Bishops book 42-5225 was a replacement a/c from the 8th February 1943.
So accident must have been after this date.
I include a list of the B17's of the 91st by sqdn from the book that would have been available as I see it. A look at the mission report would help.

322nd
41-24453; 41-24481; 41-24482; 41-24483; 41-24512; 41-24545; 42-2990; 42-5178.
323rd
41-24399; 41-24523; 41-24524; 41-24544; 41-24547; 41-24549; 41-24589; 42-5077.
324th
41-24464; 41-24480; 41-24485; 41-24490; 41-24504; 41-24505; 41-24515; 42-5069.
401st
41-24431; 41-24447; 41-24459; 41-24484; 41-24527; 42-5362; 42-5070; 42-5132.

Also ref "Heavy Bombers of the Mighty Eighth".
Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 21st December 2010 at 05:34.
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Old 20th December 2010, 14:12
mystex mystex is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

322 Squadron
21-24511
Lt. Ralph Felton

21-24515
Lt. William Beasely
Mission abord

21-24139
Capt. Barton Fishburne

21-24497
Lt. W. Genheimer

21-24481
Lt. James D. Baird

323 Squadron
41-24589
Texas Bronco
Lt. Eugene B. Ellis
Crasht on Terschelling

41-24544
Pennsylvania Polka
Lt. Alan T. Bobrow
Crasht in the Noordzee

42-5225
Stormy Weather
Capt. Bishop
Hydraulics Shot out. Landing at Bassingbourne, Ran off the end of the Runway.

42-5077
Delta Rebel no 2
Lt. Birdsong

42-29559
Stupntakit
Lt. McCarty

324 Squadron
41-24527
The Great Speckled Bird
Lt. Brill

41-24480
Bad Penny
Lt Cliburn

41-24515
Jersey Bounce
Capt. Morgan

41-24485
Memphis Bell
Lt. Verinis

41-24490
Jack The Ripper
Capt. Crumm

401 Squadron
41-24484
The Bad Eigg
Lts. J. W. Carroll

41-24362
Lts. B. E. Smith



All the knowledge I got from the squadron 322, 323, 324 en 401 mission reports from the 91 BG site...The plains of 323 ho finish this mission I found in this topic. There are a few conflicting reports of the planes that flew that day on 323 BS. The mission reports from February 4 writes that Col. Wray those days are flying with #515. In a Dutch book can be read that Way flew that day along Verinis into the Memphis Bell (41-24485). But this plain is not on the mission report for that day. But the Verinis was flying the #970 on this mission.... Is the #970 perhaps the Memphis Belle? I could not find a b-17 with number 41-24970. Maybe someone can solve this mystery. I think the a/c #970n was the Memphis Bell #485

322 BS:
FEBRUARY REPORTS
Capt. Wm. Thompson
February 4, 1943, group dispatched 17 A/C to attack
yards at Hamm , Germany with 10/500 bombs. Take off was
at 08:30 hours. 10/10 cloud was found at target and
Emden was attacked through 8/10. Results could not be
observed. Lt. William Beasely, with ball turret out
turned back at Dutch coast and attacked enemy convoy
at 532on (?), G45CE. At 1103 hours A/C #515, other
ships from 322nd were, Lt. Ralph Felton #511, Capt’s
Fishburne, Barton A/C #139, Lt. W. Genheimer #497, Lt.
James D. Baird #481, B-17’s were attacked by 75-80 E/A
for one hour and fifteen minutes, flak was moderately
heavy and accurate. Group lost two A/C of 323rd
Squadron, Lt. Ellis #589 Lt. Bogrow
#544 both over Germany . Group credited with 5 E/A
destroyed 2 probable. Of these S/Sgt E. Hale T.T.G.
of Lt. Genheimer ship #497 was credited with
destroying ME-109. Lt. Felton flying #3 position with
Ellis and Bogrow had his control cables almost severed
but his crew held them together until they were
spliced. All 322nd returned safely.

323:4 Feb. 1943 - Five ships of this squadron, piloted by Capt. Bishop, Lt.'s Birdsong, McCarty, Bobrow and Ellis took part in a mission against the Hamm Marshaling Yards. Due to weather conditions alternative target of Emden was bombed. Ships were loaded with ten five hundred pound general-purpose bombs. Results of bombing considered good. Heavy enemy flak encountered. Numerous enemy fighters engaged us. Two of our ships and their crews did not return.
Believed missing as result of enemy fighter activity. Crews missing - ship 544, Pilot, Lt. Bobrow; Copilot, Lt. Saunders; Nav., Lt. Clinard; Bombardier, Lt. Andrews; Engineer T/Sgt. Bass; Asst. Engineer, T/Sgt. Wheeler; Radio Op., T/Sgt. Curb; Asst. Radio S/Sgt. Fredricks; Tail Gunner, Sgt. E. R. Campbell; Utility Gunner, Sgt. Blackburn. Ship 589, Pilot, Lt. Ellis; Copilot, Lt. Futch; Nav. Lt. Dunham; Bombardier, Lt. Biseker; T/Sgt. Demars;
Asst. Engineer, S/Sgt. Gaeta; Radio S/Sgt. LaMedica; Asst. Radio Op. S/Sgt. Floyd; Tail Gunner, S/Sgt. Howard; Utility Gunner, Sgt. Mastrobaradino. S/Sgt. Hatch was wounded in action.

324: Emden 4 February 1943
A/C PILOT CLAIMS CASUALTIES BATTLE DAMAGE REMARKS
527 Lt. Brill None None Slight None
480 Lt Cliburn 0-1-0 0-1-0 Considerable Smoke screen over area
515 Capt Morgan None None Slight Lead ship. Air to air bombing attempts.
Col. Wray
970 Lt. Verinis 2-0-0 None Slight E/A attacked in formation
490 Capt. Crumm None None Slight Few bombs go into center of city
Target: Primary Hamm not attacked. Last resort at Emden attacked.
Sq. Losses: None (1 slightly wounded)
Gp. Losses: 2 A/C (3 wounded, 20 missing)
Remarks: Bombs into town but results unobserved. One A/C dropped on convoy near Zuider Zee scoring near misses. We lost 589, Lt. Ellis, and 544, Lt. Bobrow of 323rd

401: 4 February 1943 - T/Sgt. Quarles 14039552 assigned and joined Squadron SO 19,
Par 3, AAF Station 121 dated February 5, 1943.
GROUND SCHOOL: None. FLYING: Three aircraft flew locally for total logged time
of 5.00 hours.
MISSION TO EMDEN, GERMANY.
Squadron supplied two aircraft for this mission.
A/C# TOT ALT AT TARGET BOMBS ON TARGET
484 1155 19,000 ft 10x500
362 1150 19,800 ft 10x500
BOMBING RESULTS: Hits in town and port area.
FLAK: Intense heavy flak at target.
E/A: 70 to 80 E/A attacked Group formation for one hour and 15 minutes.
Attacks were vicious and from all angles.
CASUALTIES: S/ Sgt. J. W. Clifton wounded in back of head and right cheek,
not seriously however.
CLAIMS: A/C 484, S/Sgt. C. J. Davis FW190.
FOLLOWING CREWS CREDITED WITH SORTIE:
A/C 484: Lts. J. W. Carroll, D. H. Frank, M. E. Brown, S/Sgt. E. R. Lapp,
T/Sgt. W. R. Taylor, S/Sgt. O. O. Howard, T/Sgt. W. R. Lancaster, S/Sgts. R.
H. Ade, C. J. Davis, J. W. Clifton.
A/C 362: Lts. B. E. Smith, R. W. Freihofer, T. V. Arnkil, E. R. Bush,
S/Sgt. F. W. Dobrinski, T/Sgts. B. B. Borostowski, N. L. Thompson, S/Sgts. J.
H. Sullivan, J. F. Grimes and R. V. Gossage


Last edited by mystex; 20th December 2010 at 15:09.
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Old 20th December 2010, 18:38
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

I was thinking of 41-24549, "Stupen-taket" ( spelling ??? ) lost March 4, 1943 with McCarty's crew. ( I think there is a mix-up here http://www.bombsqd323rd.com/b17-stupentaket.html with the pic )

Said here that the mishap with "Stormy Weather" occured March 4, 1943
http://www.bombsqd323rd.com/b17-stormyweather.html
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Old 21st December 2010, 06:34
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Hi,
Your list of 322BS listed as 21-24511;21-24515;21-24139;21-24497;and 21-24481.
I expect this to have been a typo error ? and that the serial numbers you mean to read as 41-24511;41-24515;41-24139;41-24497;41-24481 ?

If so then you have listed 41-24515 also under the 324 BS ?

There was no B17 with the serial number 41-24139, I expect this a/c to have been either 41-24399 or 41-24639, 41-24439 crashed on 20th December 1942.

As for the 401st BS listing of 41-24362, I think you will find that the correct serial number would have been 42-5362 (MIA 26 February 1943 with 1Lt. Beman E. Smith) as 41-24362 was lost in the english Channel on the 9th October 1942 with the 301BG.

" '970" would have been 42-2970 "Connecticut Yankee".

If as you suggest, the Mission report has 17 a/c , five from each of three squadrons and only two from the 401BS this would be correct but as "Delta Rebel No2" of the 323 BS Aborted and its crew changed to "Stormy Weather" then the 323 BS would have had six a/c in the list, yes ?

Bobrow 41-24544; Ellis 41-24589; McCarty 41-24549; Birdsong 1st 42-5077, 2nd 42-5225; Bishop ?

41-24589; 41-24544; 42-5077; 42-5225; 42-29559 (a replacement a/c from the 25th February 1943 so not this a/c) but more like 41-24549 and one other .

Also "41-24549 323 BS "OR-O/Q" "Stupen-Taket" rather than 42-29559 323 BS "OR-Q" "Stupntakit" gained 25-2-43

all for now
Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 21st December 2010 at 08:35.
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Old 21st December 2010, 14:24
mystex mystex is offline
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Re: Which 5 b-17s of 323 BS take off on 4 feb 1943. Hamm Raid.

Alex...thanks for all your information.

I think what is remarkable is that in the book 'the mighty aight diary" is that 16 B-17s Were Able to reach the target en be effective. Only, as you can read in the mission repport of 322BS, Beasley with ball turret Out Turned back at Dutch coast and attacked enemy convoy at 532on (?) G45CE. At 1103 hours A / C # 515. That will be the aircraft of the Mission aborted, and will "Stormy Weather" and "Delta Rebel no 2 'both wearing their mission accomplished. En i think Beasley's plain was not the #515 but the #512 (maybe a typing error).....Refrech List:

Squadron322
41-24511 Wheel and Deal Lt. Ralph Felton
41-24512 Rose O'Day Lt. William Beasley Missie abord, Ball Turret out, Bomd Confoy near Dutch coast (11:03).
42-5139 Chief Sly II Capt. Barton Fishburne
41-24497 Mizpah II/Friscoe Jennie Lt. W. Genheimer
41-24481 Hell's Angels Lt. James D. Baird

323 Squadron
41-24589 Texas Bronco Lt. Eugene B. Ellis Crasht op Terschelling
41-24544 Pennsylvania Polka Lt. Alan T. Bobrow Crasht in de Noordzee
42-5225 Stormy Weather Capt. Bishop Hydraulics shot out. Crash landing at Bassingbourne when its comming back from mission.
42-5077 Delta Rebel no 2 Lt. Birdsong's
41-24549 Stupen-Taket Lt. McCarty's

324 Squadron
41-24527 The Great Speckled Bird Lt. Brill
41-24480 Bad Penny Lt Cliburn
41-24515 Marie Jane Capt. Morgan
42-2970 Connecticut Yankee Lt. Verinis
41-24490 Jack The Ripper Capt. Crumm

401 Squadron
41-24484 The Bad Eigg Lts. J. W. Carroll
42-5362 Short Snorter II Lts. B. E. Smith
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