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  #11  
Old 17th April 2016, 07:00
pstrany pstrany is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Where might this be available to those of us across the pond? A quick check of my usual spots has turned up nothing so far......


Paul
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  #12  
Old 17th April 2016, 23:08
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Hi Paul,

For the time being, the easiest way is to order it from me directly. You can drop me an PM or contact me via

www.wingsofserbia.com

Cheers,
Boris


Quote:
Originally Posted by pstrany View Post
Where might this be available to those of us across the pond? A quick check of my usual spots has turned up nothing so far......


Paul
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  #13  
Old 21st April 2016, 17:02
Orwell1984 Orwell1984 is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

My copy arrived in Canada today.
First impressions are a very well produced and well researched book. Great selection of photographs and profiles. Anyone who has even a peripheral interest in the aircraft or region during World War Two should seriously consider purchasing this book.
And to add, shipping was very reasonable and the book was well packed so it arrived in excellent shape.
Kudos to all involved and I eagerly await your next title.
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  #14  
Old 25th April 2016, 18:13
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

To Boris, a few questions?


The book contains a number of interesting information, pictures, makes a very positive impression! The authors, however, be able to write a few things wider and deeper. Therefore, I have a few questions for the part concerning Me 109 E in the service VVKJ.

1. "I do not understand", why the command of the Yugoslav VVKJ after two years of air war in Europe (Poland, Norway, France, Battle of Britain) is not practically had reached any conclusions from the experience of modern warfare? The authors of this aspect of the preparations for the war fighter of VVKJ almost missed, and it is a big shame?


Aviators VVKJ in terms of tactical skills were very weak? Poorly familiar silhouette of enemy aircraft. Aviators VVKJ poorly were also led to the defense of Belgrade against the attacks of the Luftwaffe. Courage is one thing, and strategic skills and tactical play is quite different. Having good equipment is foolish to die senselessly!



2. How Me 109s of VVKJ done combat sorties in April 1941?


3. How Me 109s of Luftwaffe done combat sorties over Yugoslavia in April 1941?


4. How many Yugoslav pilots reported total victories or claims in April 1941? Against the background of the overall success of the pilots of the Yugoslav better, when you see successful pilots fighting on the Me 109s?


5. To what extent the accuracy of the provisional list of victories Yugoslav fighter (p.172-173) is close to the "final list wins/victories"?



I hope, that my questions are not too cumbersome? Reading the book made me desire to explore the issues more thoroughly.


Regards,
mw
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  #15  
Old 26th April 2016, 19:30
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Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Hi Mirek,

I'm not sure that I understood everything but I will try to provide some answers:


1. "I do not understand", why the command of the Yugoslav VVKJ after two years of air war in Europe (Poland, Norway, France, Battle of Britain) is not practically had reached any conclusions from the experience of modern warfare? The authors of this aspect of the preparations for the war fighter of VVKJ almost missed, and it is a big shame?

I would have to disagree with this. In my opinion we described in many details the preparations for the war and acting of the higher commands. Almost the whole first chapter deals with this and the impact of introduction of Bf 109. We have tried to describe in general terms, but also through numerous examples how the things did not work properly in the VVKJ high command (the report of Dragutin Rubcic on page 21 is an example of that). Maybe we could have added that none of the VVKJ Generals rose through ranks as airmen. All came from infantry, cavalry, artillery as high officers... Only one of them was a pilot himself - Borivoje Mirković, but even he was expelled from the aviation in 1916 and he rejoined the air force in 1928 by switching from artillery. Such men did not have much understanding of the aviation and its needs. Still, our book is not the general study of VVKJ but rather of a type in its inventory.


Aviators VVKJ in terms of tactical skills were very weak? Poorly familiar silhouette of enemy aircraft. Aviators VVKJ poorly were also led to the defense of Belgrade against the attacks of the Luftwaffe. Courage is one thing, and strategic skills and tactical play is quite different. Having good equipment is foolish to die senselessly!

I can only agree with you, and this is described in great detail.

2. How Me 109s of VVKJ done combat sorties in April 1941?

All combat sorties of the 6. Fighter regiment are listed in Appendix 4. We have estimated the number of Bf 109 sorties of the 2. Fighter Regiment in the text, but as most of these were fruitless scrambles and patrols, we decided not to include a separate appendix with their list. All sorties of Bf 109 from the 3. Pilot School in Mostar are included in the text.

3. How Me 109s of Luftwaffe done combat sorties over Yugoslavia in April 1941?

I'm not sure that I understand the question. Could you please be more specific?

4. How many Yugoslav pilots reported total victories or claims in April 1941? Against the background of the overall success of the pilots of the Yugoslav better, when you see successful pilots fighting on the Me 109s?

The Appendix 3 includes all the VVKJ fighter claims from the April War (including those with IK-3s, Furies and Hurricanes). We have explained in the Introduction what problems we faced in preparing such a list and why there never will be a official list of claims. In the Appendix you can also find if there was any loss in co-relation with the claim.

5. To what extent the accuracy of the provisional list of victories Yugoslav fighter (p.172-173) is close to the "final list wins/victories"?

It is close as far as it could be with existing evidence.

For example, when Dragan Savic and I prepared the 'Croatian Aces' for Osprey 15 years ago, we had no idea that Vilim Acinger made any claims during the April War, nor did we find any mention of it anywhere.

Then, we found a war diary of a pilot who was there and who noted that Acinger claimed a Ju 87 (even if there were no losses on German side) in the afternoon of 7.4. with some other details.

Back then, when reading the transcripts of the interview with Tomislav Kauzlaric, we wrongfully concluded that he attacked a 'He 111' during the first morning raid on Belgrade on 6.4. Then, we found a letter written by Kauzlaric to his friend where he described in detail his two sorties (and not one as we initially understood) during the war. More important, his story fitted perfectly with the report of a III./KG 51 crew which was shot down in the afternoon of 7.4. by a Bf 109 and before that we could not link their demise with any existing claim.

So, we cannot exclude the possibility that some new sources will emerge and negate some of our conclusions. To be honest, I'm eagerly awaiting anything of this sort because that's the joy of the aviation history passion

Cheers,
Boris
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  #16  
Old 27th April 2016, 11:27
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Thank you for your answer.

Personally, I'm interested in and write about local air wars in World War II. I'm trying to find out the reasons that rapid and large disasters, which have suffered infested countries such as: Poland and Yugoslavia. In the case of Yugoslavia "amazes" me is a very quick defeat! Poland fell in a similar way to fast, but it was >1,5 years earlier (01.09.39-05.10.1939).


Yugoslavs during the nearly 1,5 years of war have enough time and resources to draw conclusions about the tactics and strategy of the German. With incomprehensible to me reason almost nothing in this regard have not done?

Nothing they did not learn war Italy with Greece waged since 1940. In April 1941, in spite of, among others, modern military aviation Yugoslavia quickly fell.

An example of the great awkwardness of strategic and tactical aviation Yugoslavia was the air defense of Belgrade - very inefficiently run.

Residents of the capital of Yugoslavia, suffered from a very strong air attacks of the Luftwaffe. For example, the struggle for Belgrade clearly shows huge gaps in the competence of the staff of command VVKJ - did not want to see it earlier attacks Luftwaffe on: Warsaw, Rotterdam, London?! On this basis, draw conclusions and accordingly prepare air defense of the city and its inhabitants.

Young VVKJ's pilots despite their great heroism and sacrifice virtually little they could do to stop the destruction of a large part of the city. Their skills of fighting in the group and their management/lead by higher commanders had failed.


I forgot to ask about the Me 109 equipment for 2,0 cm ammunition and their stocks of fuel. For as long as the cannon's ammunition and fuel allowed pilots of Me 109s to fight in April 1941?



PS

In 2013, I published a second time (2005 - was the first), revised and supplemented version of the VVKJ aviation in April 1941, under the title. "Lotnictwo Jugosławii w wojnie kwietniowej 1941 r./ Yugoslavia Aviation in April War 1941", pp. 16-35. Text has 34 black-and-white photos and 5 color profiles of aircraft VVKJ (D0 22Kj, Me 109 E-3a (L-10), Blenheim Mk I, IK-3, Do 17 Ka-1 (BR.20). On the cover of the magazine it is located just a Yugoslav Me 109 E, :-)


http://www.magnum-x.pl/twhistoria-20...istoria-3-2013


http://www.magnum-x.pl/artykul/lotni...tniowej-1941-r
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  #17  
Old 6th May 2016, 08:24
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Boris (and your colleagues)

While not even pretending to be a Bf 109 specialist (or even addict), I just have to say this is one of the best books I have seen on a given subject.
It is amazing that so much details and so many photos (basically all new to me!!) can be put together in only 196 pages.
Not only the Yugoslav side is given but also the German one during the entire war. Excellent stuff right through from page 1!
I have only read half the book so far and I can only agree with Boris in his comments made to Mirek's questions. It is all in the book.
I truly look forward to vol 2 which probably will deal with the Yugoslav 109s post war. Something I know even less about.

Mirek

Differing from Poland, Yugoslavia was an artificial state with so many individuals working against each other behind the scenes that I am not at all surprised that the nation crumbled rather quickly. There were even Volksdeutsch helping German pilots when they came down within the country. Poland never had to face any 'enemy within' which the Yugoslav nation did. Artificial state constellations have usually never lasted long in modern times. Where they still exist, we also see constant conflict.
Once the war started in 1939 it is really unimportant what the leadership in Yugoslavia learned or not, since unless you could manufacture what you needed yourself you simply were not going to get it, if you were not very lucky! Sweden is a pretty good example of that as well.

Cheers
Stig
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  #18  
Old 7th May 2016, 12:08
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Quote:
"Poland never had to face any 'enemy within' which the Yugoslav nation did. Artificial state constellations have usually never lasted long in modern times. Where they still exist, we also see constant conflict.


Stig with respect to you but you do not knot know, what you are talking about!?

There were during September war a few examples of such attaks done by "enemy within". The first such case (upraising/mutiny/diversion?) was done on 3.09.39 in Bydgosz by German miniority or German saboteurs from Gdańsk. German "civils" did attack Polish army - units of 15 Dywizja Piechoty, Armia "Pomorze".
German had called this event as "Bromberger Blutsonntag". Polish army and Polish civils had killed about 150-300 Germans from Bydgoszcz as revenge, retaliation on 3.09.39.

According Germans or Mr. J. Gebbels it was even more - 1000 killed Germans by Poles.

Soon and fast German had done own revenge, retalation a few tousends of Poles from Bydgoszcz/Bromberg accused for these war crimes (first were killed 350-400 Poles on 05.09.39 and later in a next few months the next 1500 Poles were mordered/shoot near Bydgosz - in Fordon).

The same problems were with Ukrainian and Bialorrusians (White Russians living in Poland 1918-1939. After 17.09.39 there were several more or less small battles with them. Attacks were done by communist supporters as concerning Białorussians around Grodno (small town Skidel, 18/19.09.39) for example.

The same was done by Ukrainian undeground national movments of OUN (supported and trained by Germans).

There were also a lot of cases of desertion from Polish Army done by Ukrainians after 17.09.39.

The first Ukrainian small uprising against Polish power was executed on 12/13.09.39 in Stryj (east-south part of Poland). Such attaks done by OUN's small units were much more after 17.09.

The scale of this communist or national/ethnic small wars in Poland were much smaller then in Yugoslavia, but Poles were often killed in the east of Poland (Kresy) after 12.09 or much more cases after 17.09.39. Total in actions against Polish civilians in September and October 1939 killed about 2,000 Poles in Eastern Galicia and in Volyn next about 1000.
There were also losses among Polish army, Police or volountary units.

The last but not least.
There was in Poland during WW II a small ethnical war between Poles and Ukrainians 1942-1945. Both sides killed a lot of people, Ukrainian of OUN/UPA much more.

Fighting in south-eastern Poland turned 1942-1945 were similar in terms of the scale and ferocity, and the number of murders between Croats and Serbs in Yugoslavia. In Poland, the Ukrainians were making similar ethnic cleaning of Poles, not to mention Jews, since October 1942 - creation of Ukrainian UPA.


Regards,
mw

As you can see Stig, before you write, you think carefully about what you do, as you can see it you do not know exactly what you write; you write utter rubbish!
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  #19  
Old 7th May 2016, 12:38
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

Mirek

You are a very agressive man and could probably start WW 3 all by yourself.
I don't mind, so please go on. I don't mind that you think I am an idiot and talk only rubbish, since that must be your usual way of talking and I am sure you make a lot of friends that way.

However you obviously don't understand what I am talking about (or mean with an 'enemy within') which is not really a surprise. I am not going to try and explain it to you since you would probably not understand it anyway.

So please keep up your abuse since I am quite amused by your outburst.
I will not comment any further on your topic unless you get back on track which is the Bf 109 and its actions over Yugoslavia.

Cheers
Stig
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  #20  
Old 7th May 2016, 15:02
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Yugoslav Story (Vol.I)

As you can see Stig, before you write, you think carefully about what you do, as you can see it you do not know exactly what you write; you write utter rubbish!

Mirek, please refrain from such comments like this. Everyone is entitled to their view but name-calling and such characterizations are uncalled for. If you disagree with what a person has written, say so, but do not use derogatory terms. if you want to persist in such writing take it off board or I will lock the thread.
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