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  #11  
Old 26th September 2016, 18:10
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Saburo Sakai

here is a verified list

2.5.42 3 P-40 1 justified shared with 6 others pilots
3.5.42 2 P-40 2 P-39 justified shared with 2 others pilots
12.5.42 2 P-39 1 justified shared with 5 others pilots
14.5.42 1 B-25 1 justified shared with 4 others pilots
21.5.42 1 P-39 no justified
25.5.42 6 B-25 6 justified shared with 11 others pilots
26.5.42 5 P-39 1 justified shared with 7 others pilots
28.5.42 2 B-26 2 justified shared with 3 others pilots
1.6.42 1 P-39 3 justified shared with 10 others pilots
9.6.42 4 B-26 2 justified shared with 24 others pilots
16.6.42 4 P-39 5 justified shared with 10 others pilots
22.7.42 1 hudson 1 justified shared with 5 others pilots
26.7.42 3 B-26 3 justified shared with 8 others pilots
30.7.42 1 B-17 no justified
2.8.42 1 P-39 2 justified shard with 5 others pilots

total= 4.3 !!!!

we are far of 64 or 28 victories

regards
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  #12  
Old 26th September 2016, 23:36
Flavio Flavio is offline
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Re: Saburo Sakai

Dear all,

referring to the score of Japanese aces, we all know that the overclaiming is very high and accuracy is very low. However just for statistic purpose we can have a look to what was official credited. In my opinion one of the most "accurate" source (apparently based on official documents, not memoirs....) is the book "Heroes of the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Force" Model Art no.439.
Here, there is a detailed list of Sakai's victories (see attach) that summarizes 55 individual claims + 19 shared (WW2 only).

I think this could be the score we have to use for compare Sakai's victories to those "officially" credited to the other Aces (Japanese or not).

Of course the verified list is another story...

Flavio
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File Type: jpg Sakai%20vitt.jpg (57.2 KB, 58 views)
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  #13  
Old 27th September 2016, 01:16
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Jim Oxley Jim Oxley is offline
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Re: Saburo Sakai

That list is really interesting Michael. May I ask where you drew the information from?

Do you not have any information on combat over New Guinea in the period Feb to July 1942?
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  #14  
Old 27th September 2016, 09:59
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Re: Saburo Sakai

Dear Flavio,

wow, this list is amazing !
Sadly, I do not speak Japanese at all :-(
Could you possibly mark the 19 shared kills ?

Cheers,

Michael
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  #15  
Old 27th September 2016, 10:57
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Re: Saburo Sakai

hi gentlemens

the probleme is that real informations is mixed with others distort and are then repeated years after years without checks.
I refer in particular of the "book" of MARTIN CAIDIN ( dubious origin and veracity)

FLAVIO your attached list is extracted from the log book of SAKAI,list that we can find in the book of HENRY SAKAIDA:WINGED SAMURAI writing in 1985

my short list is extracted from the OFFICIAL TAINAN KOKUTAI KODOCHOSHO
writing in the world war two and not many years after the war

which explains the difference .

regards
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  #16  
Old 27th September 2016, 12:55
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Re: Saburo Sakai

attached two examples of victories not corresponding

26.5.42

at 1125 hours,the official "kodochosho" indicates that 16 tainan reisen engaged 29 aircraft claiming 5 airacobras destroyed.
the claims were JOINTLY shared between Un'ichi Miya
Jun'ichi Sasai
Toshio Ota
Satoshi Yoshino
Kazushi Uto
Take'ichi Kokubun
Masayoshi Yonekawa
and SABURO SAKAI

but in his log book and other publications Sakai claimed 2 P-39 !!


11.7.42

mission to Port Moresby

1 Chutai
1 Shotai: Joji Yamashita,Ichirobei Yamazaki,Hiroshi Okano

2 Shotai:Hiroyoshi Nishizawa,Kazushi Uto,Masami Arai

2 Chutai
1Shotai:Jun'ichi Sasai,Masuaki Eendo,Matsumi Suzuki

2 Shotai:Toshio Ota,Seiji Ishikawa,Takeo Matsuda

the tainan pilots claimed two P-39 destroyed,one each by Nishizawa and by Uto

official kodochosho

and in the log book of Sakai 1 P-39 that day! but no official mention of him!!


regards
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  #17  
Old 27th September 2016, 15:05
mars mars is offline
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Re: Saburo Sakai

focusfocus, as I understand, Japanese army and navy airforce units did not keep score for individual pilots, instead all enemy aircrafts shot down were recorded as achievement by their units
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  #18  
Old 27th September 2016, 15:10
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Re: Saburo Sakai

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavio View Post
Dear all,

referring to the score of Japanese aces, we all know that the overclaiming is very high and accuracy is very low.
I kind of think this is depend on individual and the units, at least in the early stage of the war, Japanese overclaiming rate were no worse than American and British they fought
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  #19  
Old 27th September 2016, 16:51
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Re: Saburo Sakai

hi

no not necessarily shared but also as individual recorded.

the japanese overclaiming rate is much important than american and british

some examples japanese

6.4.42 5 claims 2 real losses
10.4.42 3 claims 1 real losses
2.5.42 8 claims 1 real losses
25.5.42 6 claims 6 real losses!
18.6.42 18 claims 5 real losses

4.42 to 10.42 = 374 claims ( all in the official "kodochosho") rabaul/new guinea 139 real losses US and BRITISH

the difference with overclaiming US

guadalcanal 7.8.42

claims of VF5 :Scarlet 2 and scarlet 8 : 5 claims
japanese real losses: 4

a very good ratio claims/losses

claims of VF5 and VF6 : 16 vals
japanese real losses : only 5 vals of the 2°kokutai

and now the japanese
in the "kodochosho" 36 claims 11 real losses US!

regards
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  #20  
Old 27th September 2016, 18:53
mars mars is offline
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Re: Saburo Sakai

As I said, it depends on individual and units, you can read "The Black Sheep: The Definitive History of Marine Fighting Squadron 214 in World War II" by Bruce Gamble or William H. Bartsch's books about the early stage of pacific war, basically, Japanese, American and British constaly submitted an overclaime about 4-5:1
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