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  #1  
Old 23rd December 2016, 19:23
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Hi All

Could some kind soul explain to me the meaning of certain claims 'places'?
Since I don't know what they mean or are it is a bit hard to explain, but Mombeek JG 5 book vol 4 anhang 3 list plenty as does Prien in Verbände Teil 9/III

Some of them are
S Tr 14
SO Tr 7
N Tr 18

The letters are presumably south, south east and north, but what on earth is Tr and what is the meaning of the digits??

Cheers
Stig
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:30
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Hi Stig

Usually in the East we get a grid reference of five digits. But I believe these must refer to claims in the North i.e JG 5's. Doesn't look like a grid reference. Perhaps TR is Trondheim. But usually claims here began 35 Ost then digits, or 36 Ost then digits.

Grid references in the west were also of a different format, perhaps closer to those you listed.

Grid references in the East also repeated themselves, but hundreds of kilometres apart, both East to West and North to South. Those for JG 54 wouldn't matter as they stayed in the same general area, but for a highly mobile unit like JG 52 you need to know where they are to calculate claim sites.

I believe somebody more specialist with grid references in the west can crack this one for you.

Kind regards

Johannes
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Old 24th December 2016, 11:44
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Thanks Johannes

Yes they all are way up in the north and I believe most if not all were scored by JG 5 units based at Petsamo. They are all scored against Soviet aircraft, hence I would say Trondheim is not what Tr stands for.

I actually sent a mail to Mombeek some time ago, but received no answer. The easiest way would of course be if one or both authors explain what they mean

Merry Christmas everyone

Cheers
Stig
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Old 24th December 2016, 14:38
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Maybe: Trapez (Tr.) ...
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Old 24th December 2016, 16:20
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Hi Guys

I can e.mail Erik about it. No guarantee he knows himself, he may have just replicated this grid reference without knowing the code to deciphering it. Personally I don't include the grid-references in publications, only the deciphered place names, but I can see that an author could be allowing enthusiasts the opportunity to work it out themselves.

In the normal claims in the East the digits are related to a square i.e a square divided into nine or 3 x 3 boxes the centre box being box 4. By memory the first two digits relate to the actual square number, thus the number of the actual box within the square cannot be zero only one to nine, but the square number can be zere eight e.t.c.

Bernd Barbas supplied me with this gridding code. As I said before JG 54 was pretty static so there grid references remained constant for most of the war(as would JG 5's) but JG 52 was constantly on the move, and the grids would repeat i.e 62318 would be repeated every ten square east to west, same for north to south, but perhaps 1000 km apart!

As per my previous answer referring to TR as possible Trondheim.......this was purely a guess, TR might not be related to an actual abbreviation of a city, but possibly, maybe TR is a square between TP and TS......but again a guess based on the use of gridding systems.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S in the West a different grid system used letters rather than digits.
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Old 24th December 2016, 17:57
Merlin Merlin is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

or "TR" has something to do with the Murmansk railway line, devided into route sections.
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Gerhard Stemmer
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Old 24th December 2016, 22:30
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Perhaps this will be helpful.


http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles/res.../gradnetz.html





Ed
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Old 25th December 2016, 14:08
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Thanks for all the suggestions Guys.

Never thought that neither of the authors (including Gerhard) wouldn't know but only reported what was stated in the records. My apologies for that.

Don't quite follow Rasmussen's suggestion. Can't find any place name with Trapez and what geometrical figures would it then be all about?

Various places along the Murmansk railway, well, I don't know. Why suddenly resort to such strange reports when so many others refer to real places with names?

A variant of the grid system? Why on earth invent a separate system? Makes no sense to me at least.

I just don't understand it. A true riddle...

Cheers
Stig
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Old 25th December 2016, 19:58
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
Don't quite follow Rasmussen's suggestion. Can't find any place name with Trapez and what geometrical figures would it then be all about?
"Trapez" isn't an place (German is a hard language) ... it's the part of the word "Jägertrapez". Some informations you can find in the link from edwest2.
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  #10  
Old 26th December 2016, 13:14
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Odd claim places used by Mombeek and Prien

Thanks Rasmussen

I see what you mean. Well, I understand the basic principle of the grid system even if I never bothered to understand it in detail.

However I fail to see how these examples presented by me can be relevant to the grid system at all.

If anyone is willing to see if they do, I would be very happy to stand corrected

Cheers
Stig
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