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  #1  
Old 6th May 2018, 14:19
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Hello,

found out in the Soviet documents two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm (Demyansk and Kholm) 1942:

18.Feb.42
Ju52 was downed by the antitank rifle fire near Shubino (40 km ESE Demjansk). 19 POW.
Maybe it was WNr7382 (VK+PB) from KGr zbV999 (recorded 19.Feb in GQM returns but without such heavy toll.

3.Apr.42
Transport plane was downed at H=40-60 meters by AA platoon of 26th rifle brigade (MG fire) in Zhemchugovo - Lopari area (25 km NNW Cholm). The plane burned away, 25 KIA, a parachute and a bag with maps and documents were taken.
Again can't find the losses with such heavy toll in GQM returns.

Is it possibly that non-Luftwaffe personnel wasn't accounted in these cases?

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #2  
Old 6th May 2018, 17:46
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Norbert Schuchbauer Norbert Schuchbauer is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

The GQM returns only deal with Luftwaffe personnel. It is categorized in Fliegertruppe, Bodenorginastion, Flak, Ln. and so on. Only the crew is usually listed for an aircraft loss unless the passengers belonged to the same unit as the aircraft and were flying personnel. If the POWs were form the Army then you would need to look at those loss reports. Often GQM has the losses of the other personnel listed at the beginning of the report (Luftwaffe only!). You may want to search those.

Good luck,
Norbert
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Old 6th May 2018, 17:50
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Thank you, Norbert!
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Old 7th May 2018, 16:05
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

The GQM entry for VK+PB on the 19th Feb. also has 'Ausserdem 2Heeresangehorige? ' missing I do not now if this means the five aircrew of Fw Trunk plus 2 army personnel were the total missing on this aircraft.
As regards the loss on the 3rd April GQM dated 4-4-1942 item 112 has the loss of 4V+DN to enemy fire (Cholm) FF Ofw Gerhard Nensel plus 2 missing no mention of any passengers,

Regards
Brian Bines
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Old 7th May 2018, 22:01
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Hello Brian,

the complete GQM entry from 4 April 1942 item 112 is:
3.4. KGr.z.b.V. 9, Feindflug, Auftrag/target: Cholm, Ursache/cause: Absturz infolge Feindbeschuss, loss category 4 = Totalverlust mit Feindbeobachtung durch Feindeinwirkung/Bordwaffenbeschuss auf Feindflug/destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during an operational flight, observed by enemy.
Ju 52 6557 4V+DH (not DN) 100%.
F Ofw Hensel (not Nensel), Gerhard vermisst/missing
Bm Ofw Elgass, Fritz vermisst/missing
Bs Uffz Theuringer, Ernst vermisst/missing.

Regards
Leo
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Old 7th May 2018, 23:36
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Andrey, Do you have the book “Besieged The Epic Battle for Cholm” by Jason D. Mark? It has the aircraft and gliders lost at Kholm during the seige. It mainly has the German side of the fighting.
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Old 8th May 2018, 00:00
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Hello Brian,

Thank you. I know the data from GQM returns. The problem is in discrepance between GQM and Soviet AA reports. As I understand from the Norbert's answer, the passengers - Army personnel simply are absent in GQM returns.

Best regards,
Andrey
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Old 8th May 2018, 00:02
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Hello Nokose,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Do you have the book “Besieged The Epic Battle for Cholm” by Jason D. Mark?
No, I haven't

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #9  
Old 8th May 2018, 00:25
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Hello Leo, thanks for the corrections I cannot always make out names on my GQM discs,

Regards
Brian Bines
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Old 8th May 2018, 00:43
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Two Ju52 unclear losses with heavy toll during airlift to Demjansk and Cholm 1942

Andrey, I try and send the aviation portion by email.
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