Joachim Kirschner vs claims

[focusfocus]

Hello All

J have some difficulty in indentifying some of his claims.
Accordingto Obermaier,websites,C.Bergström(2020),he 9 claims on 07/05/43 (149./157. according Obermaier)
On the T.Wood site,J can only find 8

Nine? or Eight?
His 170. on 08/03/43 (Obermaier),but exept one claim (Grünberg on 08/01/43) nothing by Wood the 01 or 02 or 03 /08/43.

Then exept on 09/27/43 (P-47?B-17?) and 10/10/43 (his 175.),nothing in "reichsverteidigung"

According to J.Prien (in very old II/JG3 in the 90s):09/24/43(B-17),10/02/43(B-17)10/03/43(Spit)...without any confirmations in T.Wood's website.

All help is welcome,thank's in advance.
michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Firstly Kirschner's official total is a little short of the previously thought 188, by memory 181. Also both in the East with JG3 and west with JG27 his claims are unreliable, so trying to match them to losses won't work.

Kind regards

Johannes

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

I'll be more specific now.

Kirschner's claims seem in my opinion reasonably until his return to 5./JG3 in September 1942. Then his number one enabler would be Hans Grünberg, and others likely were Horst Brock, and possibly Arnold Bringmann. Then later whilst Kommandeur of IV./JG27 certainly Heinrich Bartels who he borrowed from 11./JG27, don't know how these two would know each were that way inclined......perhaps some sort of secret handshake.....who knows.

Anyway:-

05.07.1943=

Il-2 0340 hrs 700 metres Nr.144
Jak-1 0341 hrs 700 metres A.S.M Nr.145
Il-2 0344 hrs tiefst Nr.146
La-5 0408 hrs 1500 metres Nr.147
Il-2 1806 hrs 150 metres Nr.148
Il-2 1817 hrs 1000 metres Nr.149
Il-2 1824 hrs 1200 metres Nr.150
Il-2 Il-2 1832 hrs 1200 metres A.S.M Nr.151

In each case Grünberg was with him.

I take it 08/03/1943 is 03/08/1943, anyway nothing, Kirschner made no claims in August 1943, his last in Russia was on 12.07.1943 his 164th.

His fiftieth was on 22.02.1943 at 1040 hrs

His seventy-fifth on 16.04.1943 at 1446 hrs

His hundreth was on 28.04.1943 at 1625 hrs.

His hundred twenty-fifth on 14.05.1943 at 1645 hrs.

unconfirmed claims were:-

22.05.1942 at 1607 hrs(between nr.3-4)
15.06.1942 at 1758 hrs(between nr.6-7
22.07.1942 at 1828 hrs(between nr.14-15)
22.07.1942 at 1828 hrs(as above)
20.05.1943 at 1320 hrs(between nr.125-126)

After his transfer to the West, his first four were with 5./JG3:-

24.09.1943 B-17 1718 3000 metres hrs Nr.165
27.09.1943 P-47 1110 hrs 9200 metres Nr.166
03.10.1943 Spitfire 1224 hrs 3000 metres Nr.167
04.10.1943 B-17 1220 hrs 6500 metres Nr.168

With IV./JG27=

23.10.1943 P-38 0905 hrs 30 metres A.S.M Nr.169
23.10.1943 Spitfire 1302 hrs 2500 metres N.O Nr.170
23.10.1943 Spitfire 1304 hrs Nr.171
25.10.1943 P-38 1319 hrs 50 metres N.O Nr.172
01.11.1943 Hurricane 1332 hrs 1200 metres Nr.173
01.11.1943 P-40 1335 hrs 600 metres Nr.174
15.11.1943 B-25 1124 hrs 5500 metres Nr.175
15.11.1943 P-38 1128 hrs 6000 metres Nr.176
15.11.1943 P-38 1132 hrs 4800 metres Nr.177
15.11.1943 P-38 1317 hrs 4000 metres Nr.178
16.11.1943 P-38 1320 hrs 4800 metres Nr.179
18.11.1943 P-38 1248 hrs 4600 metres Nr.180
18.11.1943 P-38 1303 hrs 3900 metres Nr.181

Hope this answers all.

Keep well

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Thanks to a previous thread, we know the Spitfires of October 23, 1943 weren't actually Spitfires....

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=29709

[focusfocus]

Hi Johannes

It help me,but the "case"is more complicated than expected....the way J.Prien numbers his claims for ex.
Isn't it rather the 17/11/43?

About his claims with IV/JG27,NINE! are unsubstantiated and two are at best shared!!! "it's great"!

Grünberg is also an interesting "CASE"....in particular in Normandy (1944) and after...it's unclear,very unclear!

Best Regards
Michel

[Russell]

Hi Johannnes

Is it likely Kirschner and Bartels knew each other from JFS 5 in 1941?

Russell

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Not nice to label the pilots as "over-claimers", which actually is a very mild word for it. My trouble is that most pilots were honest, and I would not like to so label the innocent. However how can it be "over-claiming" if in fact sometimes there are none shot down, or rarely no combat at all.
We have been all over how they could do it, and the easiest way is a Kommandeur with just a single wingman. But in Russia most often it was only a Rotte, Kettel or schwarm anyway, but I would say easiest way is to be a Kommandeur. It would be interesting to know if Kirschner was popular or not amongst his komrades.

Regarding totals, Kirschner like many others was it would seem only be able to "cheat" during a certain period, and then not every combat. Nowotny managed to apply "cheating" every combat for quite some time.

Some really dodgy Kommandeur:-

Rudorffer JG54
Nowotny JG54
Kirschner JG27 + 5./JG3
Hahn JG54, JG2
Lang JG26 + 5./JG54
Weissenberger JG5
Ehrler JG5
Philipp JG54

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Thanks for your input Russell. Think your find Bartels just the same record as Kirschner. I had wondered how he managed it being a lowly nco, but finally saw the link to Kirschner.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

Not nice to label the pilots as "over-claimers", which actually is a very mild word for it. My trouble is that most pilots were honest, and I would not like to so label the innocent. However how can it be "over-claiming" if in fact sometimes there are none shot down, or rarely no combat at all.

Well.... With respect, what term should we use and how handsomely are we obligated to word the phenomenon?
Overclaiming seems to be the word that a lot of quality books are using these days so do we really need to change it?
Please take these questions with the respect that they are intended...

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

Good point.

I was actually warned-off of using the term at all. So to get around it I point out those not guilty i.e "His claims match Allied losses well".

But what to do if your actually writing about daily claims and Allied losses. Like the four JG27 pilots who just fired their guns off into the desert. By removing their input, or no input from the equation things make better sense.

Mistaken over-claiming though in fact an over-claim is likely to be a result of not following protocol, still over-claiming, but much less a crime I should think.

Over-claiming is in fact fake claims, but some it seems just added-on extras, so they are in fact claiming-over, others like the JG27 four, well it was just blatant fake claims, fake claims exposed by a honest pilot, taken seriously by their Kommandeur..

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Hector]

Thanks Johannes,

The term really does seem to trigger some people and some certain responses from them. I think the term describes the act (accidental or otherwise) very well.

You make a good point about those pilots of JG 27. All these years later, the Expertensschwarm is still an "interesting" subject. A History of the Mediterranean Air War Volume 2 showed that the allegations of overclaiming still stand, very much so.

And for me, I believe a certain event involving one of the Schwarm's members just over a year later deserves re-examination too.