POWs, The Soviet Union, Poland and Annie Applebaum.

[Franek Grabowski]

The reply from Marsayo is indeed very important.
While I cannot discuss the number at the moment, there is a vaery important thing said about filtration camps. From Marsayo's post we can lear that last POWs left them in March 1945, 10 months after the end of the war. To make it clear for our Western readers, this was not equal to demobilisation.
This means, that POWs remained imprisoned(!) for quite a lenghty period of time. Now, we arive to the differencies, so hardly acceptable by Andrey. Allied POWs remained as such as long as there was a transport available. Questioning procedure existed but it was a quick filling of a form. In case of any doubts a man could have been called back, but there was no reason to hold him behind the wire. They were quickly released and attached to units or demobbed. Just a different approach to a human being.
The same difference that could be shown on example of aviation designers. We all know, what is an award to a successfull designer - his design goes to production, he becames famous, gets profits, perhaps awards. What was the position of a Soviet designer? He could have been released from a prison! Should we consider both cases perfectly normal? Andrey, whom you are trying to prove being an idiot?
There is also an important note of reconstruction, dismantling and labour units in Marsayo's post. This is an euphemism for penal units, but not to be confused with shtrafbats, eg. of Gu-ga novel. Those were forced labour units subordinated to army and working on military installations. They often consisted of 'unstable material' like Poles or Ukrainians drafted befor the German invasion. A kind of different name for the same job.
Also a very interesting reading on impact of Soviet POWs on Gulag's infrastructure is in Anne Applebaum's 'Gulag'. The book is important because it is both based on official documents but also because it is quite easily available to Western readers.
A very interesting sentence written by Andrey in the context must be quoted here.

The tale about his gulag experience was created in late 80s - early 90s, when such stories were fashionable.

I think all our friends from the Eastern Europe, including for example Czechia, Hungaria, Poland, Rumania or Slovakia, may testify, that more less at the time it became not an offence to openly talk about participation in combats in the West, fighting the Soviets or Soviet reppressions. Of course, it caused some disproportions, obvious when the one takes in mind that those subjects were not existent for a half of century. It is obvious that there was some fashion, 'Dark Blue World' being a sample of it, but it does not mean it was not the truth.
I may agree that perhaps some accounts are exagerated, that the scale was actually smaller but it does not mean that those stories were invented because of 'fahion'.
Given the fact, the current president of Russia is originating from CheKa of many names, but still the same organisation responsible for Gulags, mass murderings, genocide and controlled virtually every aspect of life (to some critics of Bush - you really do not know what are you talking about), I have no illusions that dissapearance of old 'gulag fashion' could be actually another fashion to be in accordance with the current government.
Finally, not POW related but otherwise significant quote from Marsayo.

Of the total repatriated 4,199,488 had been filtered by 1 March (1,539,475 of them pows) and 57.8% had been released to go home, 19.1% had been reassigned to army units, 14.5% were working in reconstruction units, 6.5% (272,867 people) had been detained in NKVD camps and 2.1% were working in special teams dismantling industrial sites in Poland and germany for transport to the USSR.

Our Russian friends usually like to show the Red Army as a liberators of Poland. Well, I can understand that they were dismantling installations in Germany, at last it was a conquered country. But why they were doing that in 'liberated' Poland? Perhaps we will hear that it was built or modernised by Germans. Perhaps. But just see what could have happened if Britons and Americans had removed every factory back to foundations in a country which suffered from 6 years of occupation and a moving front. I would not call it a friendly behaviour, do you?
Regards
PS Yes, I think it was that Golubyev. IIRC he was burned and bailed out thus becoming POW.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Do you consider Anne Applebaum an objective researcher? According to the info in the book her background suggests very strict pro-capitalist ideals.

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, is there anything like objective researcher?
Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position.
While it is not a scientifical work, I consider it a very valuable position. It is footnoted, it does reffer to documents but to make it readable, large part of the book are various accounts. It is not suffering from an emotional approach, which is inevitable with such authors like Herling-Grudziński or Solzhenicyn. Having in mind that no other valuable and scientific books are not available to Western readers due to language problems, and due to fact the Western universities seem more Soviet rather than CheKa, I highly recommend that book.
I suggest to have a look in a library and then to buy it if necessary on the shelve.

A post scriptum to previous comments of Andrey Dikov.
Today, about 30 people protested by the Polish embassy in Moscow.
Reason - they negated NKVD responsibility for Katyn Massacre and accusted Soviet government, that in 1988-1991 they prepared false documents proving Soviet guilt.
Reputedly they have documents and witnesses claiming about 8000 Polish POWs worked on 26 June 1941 building a Minsk-Moscow highway.
Among protesters was Yuriy Mukhin, a publicist, often quoted by Russians in historical discussions.
Draw your own conclusions, what is a fashion and what is not.

[Mazila]

Franek

Can you explain what is your problem with Katyn?

Russian government have admitted the execution of poles in 1940.

What else do you poles need? Money?

Believe me, being unfriendly to poles and generally despising them because of the long history of bad relations most people won't protest about "falsing documents" or whatever because nobody really cares.

This subject is not a fashion it's not even important, you see?

Some stupid commies (30 people, which is nothing for 150 mln country) have got another view on this matter and had a small meeting.

I do understand that such careless about Poland and poles is exactly what makes you guys generally unhappy, but it's a bitter truth.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position.

Why Franek, this remark makes me curious?

Pot meeting kettle?

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Having someone named Applebaum I would rather expect him/her being pro-Soviet not depending on background nor position

Why Franek, this remark makes me curious?

Because poles enemies are lined up as follow:

Jews
Russians
Germans
Poles themselves

[Franek Grabowski]

Ruy
We may find it politically correct or not, justified or not, etc., but the term of Judeocommunism does exist. It is a fact that Jewes had a substantial participation or sympathies towards communism, not depending on their social position. People like Trocki, Hammer or Rosenbers are just too well known and those are only representatives. Sorry, but I find a comment that Mrs Applebaum is not objective because of her background I find just ridiculous. Oh, and before more comments appear, we are fully awared of Mr Arthur Rubinstein's origin and we are fully awared of his famous concerto.

Mazilla
You are oversimplifying the problem and also directing it on wrong tracks. My point was and is only directed towards the approach of some Russians, definetelly more than those 30 idiots, as you rightly call them, toward their own history. Soviet system, which was to some degree a continuation of previous tzarist one, was extremally opressive towards Russians themselves. It was so wild and inhumane, that it is hard to compare it with anything. But Russians do not try to settle accounts, they try to excuse it. There were several Russian patriots, with whom I would not necessarilly find a common language, but who did a lot to either freed Russia or to change the approach to it. They are regarded traitors at best. There were several important figures in aviation, like Galitzine, Rozanoff or Sikorski, who are remembered by Britons, French or Americans but not Russians. Why? Because they were not members of VKP(b)?
By the way, author of Gu-ga (a history of a youth who went into a penal battalion - recommended) was a Red Army veteran, a Jew and passed away in Israel. Would you consider him a traitor, a man writing because of fashion or a liar? Would you say, that Golubyev, a Russian, was a liar who did such comments because they were in fashion?
Perhaps Western or Polish view of Russia and Soviet Union is distorted, definetelly it is exagerrated, but I have no doubt that it is still closer to the truth.

[Christer Bergström]

I think that the thread below has already come rather far from the original, interesting topic concerning the possible appearance of Soviet P-63 Kingcobras in Eastern Europe in WW II. I do not want to became involved in the unproductive yes-no poltical debate, but would merely want to return to the original problem.

Great, Carl-Fredrik! In the absence of active moderation against such trashing of threads, we need to do like you did now. That's why I "bump" this thead forward.

I follow the discussion with great interest (namely "P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945", not Silesian politics).