POWs, The Soviet Union, Poland and Annie Applebaum.

[Franek Grabowski]

Andrey
Policy of treatment of POWs is politics - just that simple. Politics is just around us and we cannot say, we are not interested in discussing it. It is childish.
Now to discuss th phenomena of Soviet/Russian approach to the subject.
Yes, the number of Soviet collaborants is really impressive. This says a lot of the country, if so many soldiers decide to fight against it, especially having no illusions what will happen with them if they loose.
The problem is not there though, and you try to escape it. People, who spend all their time in POW camps were a subject of throughrough investigation as well. And this is that dramatic difference, which you cannot understand for some reason. The difference which is also illustrated by purges and mistreatment and thousands of other crimes committed.
It is also your approach, so typical for Soviet propaganda, to misquote myself. I never mentioned Gulag as institution solely responsible for mistreatment of people. My note about purpose of Stroibatallions is still valid. Your explanation, that if someone is in the army and in a eg. in military prison, is not a prisoner is weird. Weird but not untypical.
Your comment about generous Soviet gift of German lands is another classic of Soviet propaganda. This is a blatant lie because it was a British idea and supported by all victorious powers, ie. UK, US and SU. Also, for some reason, you do not mention that even more land was grabbed from Poland by the very same SU.
Explanation, that the SU suffered most and that is why it robbed Poland of any industry is in the very same class. Poland was attacked in 1939 by joint forces of Germany and SU. The war resulted for Poland with substantial cultural, human, idustrial and territorial losses. Then Soviets came, fought the people, send them to Siberia, robbed any industry that remained and even ordered war reparations from Poland! That is what they called (and still call) a liberation. Feel free to ask anyone here from countries liberated by UK or US troops to explain those minor differencies as you call them.
All those lies were repeated all over the existence of Soviet Union. When the latter collapsed, people started to talk about what was forbidden. You call it 'fashion', I call it freedom. You say that there is no such a 'fashion' any more. You also note that you find nothing wrong with Putin being a member of KGB. The latter organisation, under various names, is directly responsible for the crimes that occured since the beginning of Soviet Russia. It is also partially responsible for the Pol-Pot crimes and many other murderings that occured outside of Russia/SU. Apart of that, KGB took care that the people will not talk anything in disagreement with party line. If I hear you explaining that some 'fashions' dissapeared in the current Russia, it sounds sinister for me.
Finally some explanation, as you 'attacked' me personally. Grabowski is a most typical and one of the most common Polish names. If you find it Jewish, well, it is your problem, I just only hope you are not trying to discredit me, because of my (supposed) origin. Personally, I do not find anything wrong with anyone being Jewish. On the other hand, I find it obvious historical fact, that the support of communism was particularly high among Jewes (this also discussed by Applebaum). Just as obvious as the one, the Germans democratically elected Hitler. If you find this a racism, it is not my problem. Let me only note that Jewishness is national or religious criterion. Jewes belong to white or semitic race depending on definition together with eg. Arabics. Therefore my comments cannot be considered racial ones, unless you do not have any other argument.

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Then Soviets came, fought the people, send them to Siberia, robbed any industry that remained and even ordered war reparations from Poland! .

Just curious

Was it any fighting? I've heard about ome AK attacks on Soviet hospitals where all patients were killed, but anything else?

How many people were sent to Siberia?

Was it any noteworthy industry in agricultural Poland? Never heard about such a robbing.

Never heard about any reparation from Poland. Are you serious?

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Mazila

Was it any fighting? I've heard about ome AK attacks on Soviet hospitals where all patients were killed, but anything else?

Those patients had tanks and aircraft. There were more Soviet troops in Poland rather than in forces of occupation in Germany and heavy combats continued up until 1947/48. Minor units survived up to 1957. A minor detail here is that AK ceased to exist during the war. Do not believe Soviet propaganda.

How many people were sent to Siberia?

You may find exact data on sites of such organisations like Karta or IPN. They have mirror sites in Russian.

Was it any noteworthy industry in agricultural Poland? Never heard about such a robbing.

Poland started building industry just a few years before the war. You do not expect there was no industry at Poland, do you?
Anyway, everything was either removed and destroyed by Germans or removed and destroyed by Soviets. Mostly by the latter, as Germans had a little time for evacuation.

Never heard about any reparation from Poland. Are you serious?

Absolutelly! Everything turned up a year or so ago when there was a discussion on German demands and possible reparations claim. It was found that up to 1953 Poland had to deliver quantities of coal from Silesia considered as war reparations.

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

There were more Soviet troops in Poland rather than in forces of occupation in Germany and heavy combats continued up until 1947/48. Minor units survived up to 1957. A minor detail here is that AK ceased to exist during the war. .

Would you prove it?
It's really doubtful, concidering the existance of communist polish forces and communist polish government being in charge that time.
Anyway the number of soviet troops are not related to polish "resistance"

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Everything turned up a year or so ago when there was a discussion on German demands and possible reparations claim. It was found that up to 1953 Poland had to deliver quantities of coal from Silesia considered as war reparations.

I'm not number one in geography, but wasn't Silesia german before and during the war?

If so it means that was reparations from german territories which became polish accidentially.

[Franek Grabowski]

This becomes indeed off topic.

Originally Posted by Mazila

Would you prove it?

What? That the AK did not exist at the time? Anything else? No, I do not think so. Karta, IPN and some more publishers prepared several detailed books on various aspects of post-war (or actually 1943-1957) underground. I suppose you may get them via Russian Memoryal.

It's really doubtful, concidering the existance of communist polish forces and communist polish government being in charge that time.

Large part of those forces were Soviets (practically all the commanding positions) and Soviet troops were necessary to keep the people on the 'goverment' side.

Anyway the number of soviet troops are not related to polish "resistance"

Without Soviet troops communistic goverment would not exist longer than a single day.
Anyway, a question to you, why if a country is 'liberated' to keep there military forces for 50 years?

I'm not number one in geography, but wasn't Silesia german before and during the war?

Most of Upper Silesia (where the coalmines are) was Polish before the war but incorporated into the Third Reich during the war. Do not you have any atlas?

If so it means that was reparations from german territories which became polish accidentially.

Apart of what was noted above, now we find that the gift from Russia, that turned to be British compensation, was an accident. I hope you will agree with me that all those millions of Soviets were killed in an accident rather than the war.

[Boandlgramer]

well, more than OT , but i have a question.
wasn´t there a election in uppersilesia in the year 1921 ( being part of poland or germany ) and almost 60 % voted for germany ?

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Apart of what was noted above, now we find that the gift from Russia, that turned to be British compensation, was an accident. .

Please don't pervert my words and admit that Silesia was a German territory mostly, so there were no reparations from Poland but reparations from the German territories.

Definitely it's difficult to imagine anything that poles could do or get without Russians, Germans or someone else.

Maybe to steal something from the Czech?

And last but not least Belorussians and Ukranians didn't want to live in Poland as well as Silesians so nobody who knows the history won't take seriously your picture of happy Poland before the war.

BTW Soviet troops were in Poland in large numbers because of Cold War, not because of Polish resistance. No need a lot of troops to make poles quiet.

[Juha]

I should stay out of this because this thread is badly OT and far from the original subject but…
Mazila
I have become curious on Your logic. When according to You for example Kuriles and Southern Sahalin became part of Soviet Union / Russia? Sometimes after 1953 or do You think that they are still Japanese territories?

Just curious
Juha

[Mazila]

Originally Posted by Juha

. When according to You for example Kuriles and Southern Sahalin became part of Soviet Union / Russia? Sometimes after 1953 or do You think that they are still Japanese territories?

Juha

They have been Russian always Want to talk over it?

Just kidding, take it easy

Actually Franek didn't prove that there were some reparations from Poland. I just discuss it considering Franek idea that something was delivered from Silseia to SU. But it may had absolutely different reasons for it.

[Juha]

I'll take it easy.
Kuriles happened to have connection to Soviet P-63s, that why I choosed it as an example. No more on this from me.

Juha