The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees... - Page 5 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

rof120 · #41 20th October 2019, 14:37

The last picture posted by John can't show the same wreck as his first: look at the left engine (to the right on the picture), which has been torn free from the wing. This is not the case on the first picture. See also the second picture offered at eBay (AC seen from the other side with some German cyclists): the left engine is still attached to the wing. Not so in the last picture.

See post # 14 by bn785371.

Pete63 · #42 20th October 2019, 15:18

I agree - there are three pictures of the same crash site but the fourth picture doesn't match. It shows much of the background and something is missing here: where are the telephone poles / tension wires in the background..? They are there in the other three pictures...

This picture also shows the damaged left wing of the aircraft. In the other three pictures it's only the leading edge that's damaged - not the wing that has broken...

With kind regards,
Piet

Pete63 · #43 20th October 2019, 16:41

When you do a Google search with these words: "2N+HN Laval" you'll find some more pics of the same crash. Maybe this helps...

Another search gets you to more pictures: "Me 110 - Picardie 1939 - 1945" and have a look at the photographs over there. By the way, on this forum people talk about "Laval", but the photographs sport the text "Amiens"...

Well, anyway - the photographs belong to the same crashed aircraft.

With kind regards,
Piet

Edit: On the northern side of Amiens airfield the "Rue d'Amiens" runs (ran) through Glisy. There were many trees near this road... I haven't found a match with the trees and forest in the background... (I tried Google StreetView and Géoportail.FR with "remonter le temps" - for the historical aerial views of 1946, but alas... no convincing proof found yet...)

John Vasco · #44 20th October 2019, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete63

When you do a Google search with these words: "2N+HN Laval" you'll find some more pics of the same crash. Maybe this helps...

Another search gets you to more pictures: "Me 110 - Picardie 1939 - 1945" and have a look at the photographs over there. By the way, on this forum people talk about "Laval", but the photographs sport the text "Amiens"...

Well, anyway - the photographs belong to the same crashed aircraft.

With kind regards,
Piet

Edit: On the northern side of Amiens airfield the "Rue d'Amiens" runs (ran) through Glisy. There were many trees near this road... I haven't found a match with the trees and forest in the background... (I tried Google StreetView and Géoportail.FR with "remonter le temps" - for the historical aerial views of 1946, but alas... no convincing proof found yet...)

With respect, this crash of 2N+HN, a Bf 110 C-1, was not at Laval. The crash at Laval was on 17th September 1940, and was a C-2 sub-variant, W. Nr. 3513. Also, that crash was into a hedge, side-on.

John Vasco · #45 20th October 2019, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by rof120

The last picture posted by John can't show the same wreck as his first: look at the left engine (to the right on the picture), which has been torn free from the wing. This is hot the case on the first picture. See also the second picture offered at eBay (AC seen from the other side with some German cyclists): the left engine is still attached to the wing. Not so in the last picture.

See post # 14 by bn785371.

I agree. I just said I would post up the two photos when I received them.

The road was heavily tree-lined on both sides.

Pete63 · #46 20th October 2019, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Vasco

With respect, this crash of 2N+HN, a Bf 110 C-1, was not at Laval. The crash at Laval was on 17th September 1940, and was a C-2 sub-variant, W. Nr. 3513. Also, that crash was into a hedge, side-on.

Hi, John.
I didn't state that the crash was at Laval - it was just the way for searching the relevant photographs of the same crash as in your three photographs of 2N+HN.
The photographs depict the same position - but have the wrong photo captions, okay?
Fact: the telephone/hi tension poles in the background are in all the pics described, the typical tree with the forked shape in front of the right hand engine is the same tree in all pics and the ditch in which the main landing gear of the Me 110 came to a halt is there in all pics as well. Your new pic is a beauty too..!

In all pics only one prop blade is damaged. It might be that this explains the damaged tree which isn't anywhere near the engines. Maybe the aircraft hit this tree first and then turned right almost 90º or less and came to a halt in the position seen in the pics. (This is only an assumption, I'm afraid...)

We're looking for a road with large trees on both sides with a telephone/hi tension wire running almost parallel to it. There's a field in which the aircraft came to a halt and next to the field on a 90º corner to the road there is a forest/tree line.

With kind regards,
Piet

John Vasco · #47 20th October 2019, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete63

Hi, John.
I didn't state that the crash was at Laval - it was just the way for searching the relevant photographs of the same crash as in your three photographs of 2N+HN.
The photographs depict the same position - but have the wrong photo captions, okay?
Fact: the telephone/hi tension poles in the background are in all the pics described, the typical tree with the forked shape in front of the right hand engine is the same tree in all pics and the ditch in which the main landing gear of the Me 110 came to a halt is there in all pics as well. Your new pic is a beauty too..!

In all pics only one prop blade is damaged. It might be that this explains the damaged tree which isn't anywhere near the engines. Maybe the aircraft hit this tree first and then turned right almost 90º or less and came to a halt in the position seen in the pics. (This is only an assumption, I'm afraid...)

We're looking for a road with large trees on both sides with a telephone/hi tension wire running almost parallel to it. There's a field in which the aircraft came to a halt and next to the field on a 90º corner to the road there is a forest/tree line.

With kind regards,
Piet

Piet,
This is what you posted in post #43: "...When you do a Google search with these words: "2N+HN Laval" you'll find some more pics of the same crash. Maybe this helps..."

What I then posted was clarification. 2N+HN crashed into the trees was May 1940.

This is the crash at Laval on 17th September 1940:

The point you make in your paragraph 3 is clearly shown in this photo:

Comparing the height of the damage to the starboard leading edge with the height of the damage on the tree shows that at the point of impact the wheels had not yet lodged in the ditch. After impact, the 110 turned, dropped into the ditch, whereupon the next tree sustained damage from the prop blade, and the next tree further along sustained damage from the port wing leading edge. These latter two are the same height as the damage on the 110.

Pete63 · #48 21st October 2019, 01:00

John,
I've been searching the Sankt Vith (Belgium) area extensively and found out that 6 Kms to the North of Sankt Vith there's a small village called Born (very close to the German (mis-)pronunciation of "Buern" as found in the logbook that was mentioned earlier on in this thread).
The area can't be fully examined in Google's StreetView, but 6 Kms to the West of Sankt Vith I've found a road that has similarities to the road in the pictures of the Me 110. The road crossing "Am Mühlenberg" and "Weisterweg" can be visited in StreetView - when looking West, you can see the same sort of road as in the pictures. It's this type of tree that seems to be common in this area of Belgium - some sort of a coniferous tree (see Me 110 pics...). I don't know if we'll ever find the exact spot as in the photographs, but driving around the Born area might give away a possible location... Perhaps Belgian members of TOCH! might have a go at it on a lazy Sunday..?

The area around Sankt Vith and Born shows a lot of similarities to the area in the pictures - I'm still trying to find telephone/hi tension poles along tree lines, but they are hardly discernible - if not removed already a long time ago... The search continues, I'm afraid...
With kind regards,
Piet

John Vasco · #49 21st October 2019, 01:08

Piet,

Yes, I believe we've got the date and the crew from this thread. Now it's just a case of trying to pinpoint the exact location...

The problem with trying to find the exact location is that the reference point for the crash on the back of photos is from a German viewpoint, so different photos will use different local place names as being the location. Makes it bloody hard 79 years later for us!

Pete63 · #50 21st October 2019, 01:22

Hi, John.
I can't read the name of the crash site - I thought Born/Buern was mentioned - but that's the airfield above and below the crash site. I'm sorry - I've mixed things up. The crash site is St. ????? - St. Juan oder St. Fuan? (I've tried all possible spellings in Sütterlin and Fraktur in the converter on the world wide web...)
I'm pretty certain we're searching in the right area...
With kind regards,
Piet

(edited after spelling checks in Fraktur, etc.)