Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

Even though as a child in school we were always taught that the country was "Holland" rather than the Netherlands. I'll attempt to reform my verbiage, as I have many good friends in "the Netherlands" and don't want to offer offense. If you asked an American, probably most would name the country as Holland rather than the Netherlands, as that's the way it is taught in world geography classes here in primary school. And in school history classes, the Dutch who settled New York came from "Holland," where they grow lots of tulips. There is even a famous passenger ship line called "Holland-America Lines." Enough. I get the point, something about Dutch historical sensitivities. I guess as a Coloradoan, I wouldn't want to be referred to as a New Yorker (heaven forbid). They have big buildings but we have big, beautiful mountains. Let's move on.

Pieter, no the location is not Berkelaar in southern Limburg, but near Wons. I don't have a 109 listed as down on 12.5.40 near Berkelaar. I do have a 2./JG26 aircraft that came down on the 12th, but which has been variously reported as having set down at both Waalhaven and Dordrect. I'm trying to confirm that the photos that I have of an overturned Bf109E from that unit is that same incident, and determine precisely where it set down and flipped over. The photos should indicate a badly injured or killed pilot, but that isn't indicated in the 2./JG26 loss reported at Waalhaven, which I think is also the Dordrect incident. Tell me more.

Did you get my list of crashes in "the Netherlands" for 10.5.40 that I sent you today?

Regards,

[Putkikker]

Mr Hickey

I regret the sarcasm expressed here about my remark, I really do. But the fact remains: Holland is the wrong name to use for the 1939-1940 area, and I can't help it your teachers were wrong......

[maxxl2]

Originally Posted by Putkikker

Mr Hickey

I regret the sarcasm expressed here about my remark, I really do. But the fact remains: Holland is the wrong name to use for the 1939-1940 area, and I can't help it your teachers were wrong......

Please direct your request to the The Agency for International Business and Cooperation (EVD) is a bureau of the Ministry of Economic Affairs, Juliana van Stolberglaan 148, 2595 CL Den Haag, P.O.Box 20105, 2500 EC Den Haag The Netherlands.

They release the "Made in Holland" Magazine worldwide which you may read online at: http://www.hollandtrade.com/vko/home.asp

I wish you a pleasant and successful discussion with them. Maybe your national Government is wrong, too and needs your advice.

[Putkikker]

Originally Posted by maxxl2

Please direct your request to the The Agency for International Business and Cooperation (EVD) is a bureau of the Ministry of Economic Affairs, Juliana van Stolberglaan 148, 2595 CL Den Haag, P.O.Box 20105, 2500 EC Den Haag The Netherlands.

Maxxl2

You prove my point by writing down the adress of the agency is in The Netherlands, not in Holland.....

Holland is a good name for doing business, not the correct name to describe The Netherlands as nation in a history book covering a certain area (1939 - 1940). As a historian it's my opinion correct names should be used in history books.

Again no effort to offend anyone here, just some positive feedback which you cannot see, for I obviously have been standing on someone's big feeth here. I'm sorry for that.

Read this for more understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

Sorry, cannot help you with the 8./KG 54 questions you have

[Foute Man]

Putkikker is right

[Larry Hickey]

Putkikker,

I read the wikipedia article and must admit that I'm now more confused than ever about what the Netherlands is, politically. All very complicated. I also read the "Made in Holland" publication put out by your own government, which seems to me an acknowledgement by your own country that the familiar, internationally known (but not official) name for the country is Holland. Imported goods here in the US require a label of origin be attached, and I'm sure that I've seen such labels for goods imported into my country saying "Made in Holland," not "Made in the Netherlands." I'm sure that a large majority of the American population--alas, renowned for their ignorance of foreign geography and languages-- wouldn't know what or where "the Netherlands" was, hence the use of a name familiar to almost everyone and taught to us in our schools since childhood. So, no offense or sarcasm intended, but it seems to me that both usages on an international forum such as this are appropriate, and forcing one to disregard the commonly used name for your country in other countries seems a bit much, since I'm not trying to argue what to call your country, but to convey information about locations of WW II era crashes of Luftwaffe aircraft. At least I'm trying to learn the geography of your country in some considerable detail, and have visited there a number of times in recent years--always a pleasant experience. And yes, I have a university degree in History, and have considerable knowledge of world geography.
(And then there is Belgium, not what to call it but what it is, politically. I'm not even sure that Belgians know the answer to that question). The world seemed so much simpler in my grammar school geography classes.

Regards,

[maxxl2]

Originally Posted by Putkikker

Again no effort to offend anyone here, just some positive feedback which you cannot see, for I obviously have been standing on someone's big feeth here. I'm sorry for that.

No offence, but we talk about colloquial language:

saying England we mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
saying America we mean the United States of America,
saying Holland we mean Kingdom of the Netherlands,

let us follow the KISS - rule: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

PS: I am born in Leeuwarden - I am not Dutch - I am Frisian ;-)

[RudiS]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

And then there is Belgium, not what to call it but what it is, politically. I'm not even sure that Belgians know the answer to that question.

I don't think we, Belgians, even bother about this. Politically-wise, that is ;-)

Kind regards,
Rudi.

[maxxl2]

Originally Posted by bugger

I don't think we, Belgians, even bother about this. Politically-wise, that is ;-)

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Man, you are kidding. Belgium is on the brink to break apart.

Are you "Flams" or from "la Wallonie"? ;-)

[Putkikker]

Originally Posted by maxxl2

No offence, but we talk about colloquial language:

saying England we mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
saying America we mean the United States of America,
saying Holland we mean Kingdom of the Netherlands,

let us follow the KISS - rule: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

PS: I am born in Leeuwarden - I am not Dutch - I am Frisian ;-)

In unofficial language it's ok to use Holland (like on this forum), in a history book, or government report (where official language is required) The Netherlands is the only correct word. I actually prefer the KIA(A) rule: Keep It Accurate (up to you to make the last word starting with an A) .

Let's drop this subject, and let's find that one 8./KG 54 aircraft that is still missing

Originally Posted by maxxl2

PS: I am born in Leeuwarden - I am not Dutch - I am Frisian ;-)

Do you want to talk about that?