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  #1  
Old 9th May 2018, 18:09
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Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

During the month of September 1941 with the Finnish offensive between Lake Ladoga and Lake Samyozero, did the Luftwaffe provide any air support for Finnish forces? I have ran across reports of Bf 109s attacking Soviet aircraft in that area and shooting them down. There is no matching claims for them in German records and no matching claims in Finnish claims that I have found.

Also a dogfight was conducted on the 10 Sep 41 west of Leningrad. The Bf 109 F-2 # 12 627 came down for a belly landing at Berayarovo with 30% damage (pilot unknown). I have looked for this location without success but I found a Beryozovo which was located to the northwestern part of Lake Ladoga, I believe this was under control of Finnish forces at that time. Any mention of this recovery in Finnish records? This seems a little far to fly to get to Finnish controled territory.

Last edited by Nokose; 9th May 2018 at 18:19. Reason: Corrected the location on the 10th. Added to text.
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Old 10th May 2018, 20:53
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Privet!

Short answer: NO.

I take your "Lake Samyozero" is Säämäjärvi.

German-Finnish operation area border in North was approximately Oulu - Sorokka (Belomorsk) line.

Finnish III AK (Army Corps) was subordinated to Germans and was supported by Luftwaffe in Kiestinki (Kestenga) area. But that was north of the operation area border.

Southern part of Lake Ladoga was German operation area. Leningrad was "no-go" area for Finnish Air Force without express orders.

Germans and Finns mostly cared only for their own particular "businesses". In my opinion co-operation was loose even in the best cases.


Of type recognition in general. I believe that number of engines usually is correctly reported. Everything above that is susceptible. There has been even errors in radial/in-line engine recognition.


Cheers,
Kari

PS
Glimpsed some books.

Battles between lakes Ladoga and Samyozero were fought in August 1941. Most likely the "messers" were Morane 406 of LLv 28. It transferred to Karkunranta (Lunkula) August 19, 1941. See also this Finnish site: http://www.sotahistoriallisetkohteet.../view/-/id/736 . It has maps and photos of Lunkula airfield. Google Translate may surprise and return something understandable?

German 163 ID (army infantry) operated North of Samyozero, but AFAIK closest Luftwaffe units were hundreds of kilometers away. Maybe someone can educate me on this?

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 11th May 2018 at 08:26. Reason: Brain fart
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Old 12th May 2018, 23:35
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Kari, here is the first page of the Soviet VVS 7th Army report, they were operating between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onezhskoye on Finland’s border, outside of the operation of German ground forces.


Series B
Chief of Staff VVS K.F.
Chief of Stafff 7

1. VVS 7th Army during the day 19.9.41 conducted a reconnaissance campaign of enemy reserves in the direction of Petrozavodsk. Destroyed manpower and technical means of the enemy in the area of Markelitsa and on the roads eastof Lake Syam-Ozero, a large enemy headquarters in the area of the curve of the road 8 km north of Kindasovo and fuel depot. At the incriptions SAR. north 2 km of Kindasovo. Bombarded the R.R. Station Suoyarvi, Lomola, Yanisyarvi. In all made 107 aircraft-flights, Raids - 103 hours. Bombs dropped: FAB-250 -2, FAB-100 -94, FAB-50 -78, AO-15 -50, AO-10 -28, cartridges fired 21300.

2. 72 SBAP in the period 11:00 - 13:00 6 SB with an escor of 3 MiG-3 bombed a large enemy headquarters at the bend of the road 8 km north of Kindasovo, the crews observec up to 20 direct hits of bombs in the area of camouflaged tents. The headquarters was destroyed. In the area of the target the crews were shelled by powerful AAA fire. From the combat mission did not return 3 crews Ml. Leytenant Shcherbakov, Serzhant Shumakov, Ml. Leytenant Kovalev, Leytenant Svir’, St. Serzhant Pantelee. Ml. Leytenant Mironchenko, Ml. Leytenant Ananchenko, St. Serzhant Ivanov. On the reports of othercrews, leading the section under the command of Ml. Leytenant Shcherbakovbombing made in the general formation, after which thesection went into the clouds and dusappeared. On the reports of theMiG-3 escorting crewx, the section of Leytenant Shcherbakov after bombing were attacked by 6 Me-109, the further flight of the section is not observed, presumably the 3 SB crews were shot down by enemy fighters.
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Old 13th May 2018, 01:54
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Privet!

Answer seems to be in I/105. KevItPtri (1st section, Kevyt Ilmatorjuntapatteri - Light AAA battery) war diary. They were Brewsters (of LLv 24). Can not explain why there seems to be no claims.

I/105 was located at Prääsä (Prjaza).

I/141. KevItPtri (also at Prääsä) war diary says the same: Brewsters shot down 3 SB-2 "11.40 ... Omat Brewsterit pudottivat 3/SB-2".



Somebody else will translate the text for you.

The HQ was HRR (Hämeen Ratsuväkirykmentti - Häme Cavalry Regiment). Two KIA, 12 wounded.


Cheers,
Kari
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File Type: jpg I_KevItPtri 105 spk 19.9.1941.JPG (90.0 KB, 92 views)
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  #5  
Old 13th May 2018, 02:51
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Thanks Kari, the Soviet pilots must have had “Me-109s” on their mindset at this stage of the war. This helps in moving away from looking for German claims in this area.
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:36
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Kari/Michael

Reading Suomen Ilmavoimat Vol 3 1941 by Keskinen/Stenman 3./LLv 24 led by Capt Jorma Karhunen (six aircraft) attacked a number of SB bombers in the Pyhäjärvi area and claimed three shot down plus two fighters, identified as LaGG-3.
Time Place Pilot Aircraft used Sovet aircraft
11.20-11.30 Manga Luutn O Kauppinen BW-379 SB confirmed (1)
11.25-11.35 Manga Alik P. Mellin BW-363 SB confirmed (1)
11.25-11.35 Manga Vääp L. Nissinen BW-384 SB confirmed (1)
11.25-11.35 Manga Vääp L. Nissinen BW-384 LaGG-3 confirmed (2)
11.25-11.35 Manga Kers N. Katajainen BW-368 LaGG-3 damaged

Keskinen/Stenman has identified the bombers as belonging to 72 SBAP and the fighters to 238 IAP.

I have not tried to chase up these places on any maps, but I am sure you will

1) Confirmed with witness 2) Confirmed without witness

Cheers
Stig

PS: Tabulation does not work, but I hope the table is understandable
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Old 13th May 2018, 14:43
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Thanks Stig! The report only lists three SB, so maybe they made a pass on all six before they tried to escape into the clouds. I didn’t go into the part concerting the fighters, but it seems they had a fixation on being in combat with Bf 109s.
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Old 13th May 2018, 19:02
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
...
I have not tried to chase up these places on any maps, but I am sure you will
...
Tack!

No I will not. Have been on road for two days now. No access to anythiing but online sources.

Cheers,
Kari
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Old 13th May 2018, 20:29
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Filling in some information about the 19 Sep 41 from the VVS 7th Army.
5 Pe-2 from the 31 PBAP bombed the RR station at Suoyari. On their withdrawal to the southeast shore of Lake Shot-Ozero, they were attacked by 9 “Me-109”. One Pe-2 forced landed at the airfield at Derevyannaya.

MiG-3 from the 179 IAP was on a reconnaissance mission at Lake Syam-Ozero when attacked by 6 “Me-109”. The fighter only received a few holes.

SB from the 119 RAE was attacked to the north of Kindasovo by 2 “Me-109”. Gunner-radioman Nezhevenko reported shooting down a “Me-109”. The SB received 108 holes in the bomber.

4 LaGG-3 from the 238 IAP at 17:10 to the west of Lake Syam-Ozero engaged in a dogfight with 12-14 fighters. They claimed to have shot down a Brewster. They had one LaGG-3 listed as missing.

I have located most of the places listed on the current map. Thanks for all the help.
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Old 14th May 2018, 10:44
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Soviet - Finnish air war question for 1941

Thanks for the update Michael

If the time of the combat of 238 IAP is correct, then it cannot have been the claim made by Nissinen.

I guess this is what always happen when trying to come to grips with aerial combat. We have seen in the past how places, dates and so on are confused.
So in my books, even times (when/if stated at all) can be wrong as well. In this case? No idea...

Cheers
Stig
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