Oblt Konrad Bauer's three P-51 victories-September 11,1944

[kaki3152]

On September 11,1944 Oblt Konrad Bauer shot down three P-51 in ten minutes before being shot down.He was flying with II/JG-300. He was badly wounded and effectively did not return to combat flying.

Does anyone know the identity of the P-51s? On this date the 8th AF lost probably the largest number of P-51s to enemy aircraft attack in its history.

[drgondog]

where were they II./JG300 located? There weren't many losses of Mustangs on September 11. The attacks on Hannover/Misburg in which elements JG300 and JG53 attacked the bomber stream from ne of Frankfort toward Kassel were mauled by the 355th which had two losses to flak near Marburg A/F and one to a mid air collision with a JG 53 109.

I'll have to look at other losses in that area.

There was another strike to the Leipzig/Merseburg area with engagements all around that region with more losses. Unfortunatel I have packed most of my reference material up for a move.

[Laurent Chambon]

According to JY Lorant / R Goyat JG300 story 'Bataille dan le ciel d'Allemagne" during a one hour air combat against JG3, JG4, JG11, JG27, JG53, JG76, JG300, 16 mustangs were shot down and around 15 were damaged in aerial combat. 2 others Mustangs were lost over Friendly territory after being damaged when their pilots decided to bail out. One more Mustang was shot down by a Me262 and 11 more were destroyed during strafing or due to other reason than air-combat. Konrad Bauer claims were located :
[15 Ost S/MU] Lichtenau/Rotenburg a.d. Fulda 7000m (Homologated)
[15 Ost S/MU] Lichtenau/Rotenburg a.d. Fulda 3500m (Homologated)
[NT] Schwalmstadt-Ziegenhain 50m (ASM)
In this sector MT-NT-MU-NU-MU-MA 7 Mustangs where lost, II/JG300 claiming 8.
in the MU sector:
2 P51D from the 364FG (Lt Davis PoW, Lt Albrecht KIA)
1 P51D from the 352FG (Lt Rayborn PoW)
1 P51D from the 359FG (Lt Bruening KIA)
in the MA sector:
1 P51D from the 359FG (F/O O'Shea KIA)
1 P51B from the 4FG (Lt Iden KIA)
In the NU sector
1 P51D from the 4FG (Lt Russel WIA PoW)

[Sylvester Stadler]

Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary states that on 11 Sept. 1944 the VIII Fighter Command lost 17 fighters missing and another eight damaged beyond repair for a total of 25. In return the American fighters claimed 115-7-23 in the air and 42-0-43 on the ground. The 8th bombers claimed 17-25-4 for the loss of 40 bombers missing and seven damaged beyond repair for a total of 47.

Jochen Prien in his history of IV./JG 3 lists German fighter losses as 113 as destroyed or written off and 20 damaged with another 2 fighters destroyed on the ground. Does anyone know if there is a published list of all aircraft destroyed on the ground or a summary thereof on a daily basis?

[Skyraider3D]

Originally Posted by Laurent Chambon

Konrad Bauer claims were located :
[15 Ost S/MU] Lichtenau/Rotenburg a.d. Fulda 7000m (Homologated)
[15 Ost S/MU] Lichtenau/Rotenburg a.d. Fulda 3500m (Homologated)
[NT] Schwalmstadt-Ziegenhain 50m (ASM)

I have slightly different data on Konrad Bauer's last claim: Schwalmstadt-Alsfeld. 10 Miles south of Alsfeld there is the town of Meiches. Around noon 2nd Lt. Frank W. Holliday of the 369th FS/359th FG was killed and his P-51D 44-14307 IV-P crashed, 1km north of Meiches.

Bauer claims this victory at 11:58 at 50m altitude, which matches closely enough (eye witnesses from the Meiches area report a battle low overhead).

Also at the same time another aircraft came down here, shot down by enemy aircraft: an Fw 190 A-8, flown by Gerhard Piel of 5./JG 300 - the same unit as Bauer! Piel crashed near the village of Windhausen, 4 km northeast of Holliday's crash site. It seems likely that Holliday, having lost his flight, found himself in combat with this Fw 190 and managed to bring it down, only to fall victim to Bauer next. (source)

And there's yet another crash site here on this date: an Me 109 which came down at Helpershain, just 4 km southeast of Holliday's crash site. I have no data on the pilot or unit for this crash. (source)

Is it possible that Frank Holliday, who appears to have been on his own at this time, shot down both these aircraft before being killed by Bauer?
Holliday died of a strike to the head, likely being killed by a bullet before crashing. The MACR states for cause of death: "Death probably by shot in the head. The other injuries by crash."

How was Piel related to Bauer? Was he his wingman by any chance? Both pilots were, or became, aces.

I understand Bauer came down in Nordhausen, a good while away to the northeast, so his crash is probably unrelated to this particular combat. For the record he flew Fw 190 A-8/R2 WNr.681469 "Red 21" - cause also enemy aircraft. (source)

I've compiled and uploaded the MACR for Frank Holliday:
http://www.digitalaviationart.com/fo...2044-14307.pdf
The first page is all fuzzy, but the rest is clear.
(source: Fold3.com)


NB. 20 minutes earlier, Frank Holliday was flying wing to Lt. John H. Keur and involved in combat with Me 109s north of Erfurt, one of which he is credited shooting down before last seen. Keur, who also destroyed a 109, joined up with some 357th FG Mustangs and together they flew back to England

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Skyraider3D

I understand Bauer came down in Nordhausen, a good while away to the northeast, so his crash is probably unrelated to this particular combat. For the record he flew Fw 190 A-8/R2 WNr.681469 "Red 21" - cause also enemy aircraft.

nice post, thanks....I somehow doubt that 'Red 21' was an A-8/R2, Bauer's usual 'Red 3' was an A-8 with erhöhte Notleistung, while his regular wingman was Ofhr. Hans-Dieter Oehm

[JanZ]

Interesting discussion!
Fw Bauer was lost in the Nordhausen area, on border of Planquardats KB and LB, due to his injury stayed in hospital till January 1945.
In that area is reported a huge combat by the 352nd FG which attacked some 20-30+ s/e e/a in area Nordhausen-Mulhousen-Gottingen from 11:55 to 12:15, claiming 7 kills. Combat was from 27000 ft to the deck.

But the reported area covers "only" 5 LW losses, from JG 76, JGr.10 and JG 300 (including Bauer)
So the mentioned combat was possibly slightly ,ore on SW from the reported area, between Kassel and Erfurt. There are several losses from JG 300, JG 76 and JG 27. US fighter losses in that area are mostly around 12:00 (352, 359 and 364 FGs). Interesting is, these were FGs originally escorting different Bomb Divisions, but were in the area on time to protect 1st BD bomber stream heading for Merseburg and Halle. So the combat of these three US fighter groups with part of JG 300 and JG 76 and JGr 10 did not allows Luftwaffe defenders to make a large formation to jump on bombers... so finally only the Stab of JG 300 with Walter Dahl (and IV./JG 3) successfully attacked the 92nd BG (1st BD) over target.
(only 368FS/352FG spotted part of the composite "sturmattack" preparing to hit bombers over Merseburg and went into combat with claims 6-2-1).
It was reported at 12:02 - 12:08.

So, that is the situation in area... back to the original question:

- first two victories (by Bauer) were claimed in area SE of Kassel at 11:52, 11:53. That should be correct, since it is area and time of the above described large combat.
Five P-51s were lost in that area and time (shortly before midday), but LW claimed much more, of course. So there is hard to say who may be Bauer's victim, as there were lost (being shot down by fighters) 364FG - Albrecht, Davis; 352FG - Rayborn; 359FG – Breuning, O'Shea.

- Konrad Bauer's third P-51 on that day is reported in planquadrat NT "Schwarmstädt-Arsfeld" at 11:58... but this is far away from first combat and his later crashsite and also from combat/loses/victories of other JG 300 planes (mean the Sturmgruppe, Stab, also as their Bf 109 escort). It is close to the battle over Giessen (2nd BD + their escort vs. JG 53), but I do not believe, that the reported victory has a relation to that separate battle. At least there is no P-51 crash, except to Lt. Frank Holliday from 359th FG just south of that area.
(see very interesting description by “Skyraider3D” in his post 19th November 2013, 12:34 and note about Gerhard Piel of 5./JG 300 !)

I do not know details and exact time about Bauer's loss on that day, but it seems, that he flew from the battle area by NE direction (his base was SE direction) and either due to plane damage, injury, or subsequent combat he bailed out.

[Skyraider3D]

Originally Posted by JanZ

Konrad Bauer's third P-51 on that day is reported in planquadrat NT "Schwarmstädt-Arsfeld" at 11:58... but this is far away from first combat and his later crashsite and also from combat/loses/victories of other JG 300 planes.

Exactly. I believe this is a double typo and it should be Schwarmstadt-Alsfeld instead. And if this is so, it puts Bauer right where Holliday and Piel came down. Since Piel is from the same Staffel, this seems highly likely to be correct. There are a lot of German towns with similar or exactly the same names, and typos are common too. For example there is more than one Windhausen - the one Piel came down is only a tiny village and barely shows up on the map.

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by JanZ

I do not know details and exact time about Bauer's loss on that day, but it seems, that he flew from the battle area by NE direction (his base was SE direction) and either due to plane damage, injury, or subsequent combat he bailed out.

see Lorant/Goyat. He crash-landed and was stuck in the cockpit while P-51s strafed the wreck...

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

Roger Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Diary states that on 11 Sept. 1944 the VIII Fighter Command lost 17 fighters missing and another eight damaged beyond repair for a total of 25. In return the American fighters claimed 115-7-23 in the air and 42-0-43 on the ground. The 8th bombers claimed 17-25-4 for the loss of 40 bombers missing and seven damaged beyond repair for a total of 47.

William H. Adams book "Fighter Losses of the Mighty Eight" (1995) is listing 24 P-51 lost that day . Each loss has an MACR and a crash-location reference in Germany.
- 1 loss was caused by Mechanical Failure
- 1 loss was caused by a Collision
- 6 losses were caused by Flak
- 1 loss was caused by Jet Fighters
- 15 losses were caused by Fighters

Best wishes

Horst Weber