Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16th April 2009, 19:08
rlapes rlapes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: West Wilts, UK.
Posts: 34
rlapes is on a distinguished road
Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Hi folks can you help to resolve confusion over this Lancaster's crash site?

Lancaster ME578 VN-K 50 Squadron
FTR 22 March 1944
Target: FrankfurtAM
6 KIA 2 PoW

The latest information I can find is from Chorley's amendments. It suggests that this plane crashed at Vörden.
However there are three Vördens and two of them are very close to the route taken that night:
  • Vörden 49434 Neuenkirchen-Vörden, Vechta, NDS, Germany
  • Vörden 37696 Marienmünster, Höxter, NRW, Germany
  • Vorden, Dorpsstraat 3, Vorden 7251 Bronckhorst, GLD, The Netherlands

I suspect that the correct Vörden is 49434 Neuenkirchen-Vörden, Vechta, NDS, Germany.

To support this I have found this link showing 2 airmen parachuting to safety in Harpendorf and a plane crashing at Holdorf:
http://www.gedenktafel-infoportal.de...21210#msg21210

However this report just says it happened in March 1944, it does not say which day and it's location is only close to a Vörden.
I've looked at the other bomber command raids during March and only the 22 March 1944 Frankfurt raid pass close to this location.
I've tried to register with the web site but I get a verification error that I can't seem to correct.

Does anyone have any other evidence to confirm that this event is related to ME578?

Please could some kind person, with better German skills than mine, contact the person who posted the forum article to see if there is more information?

If this is correct then I suspect the best claim is:
22.03.44 Ofw. Rudolf Frank 3./NJG 3 4-mot Flzg GR-2 6.000m 21.18 2025/I Anerk Nr.65

Does any one have any information about Frank's claim that can resolve the crash site?

Many thanks
Robert
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 17th April 2009, 01:14
shooshoobaby shooshoobaby is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 605
shooshoobaby is on a distinguished road
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Robert -
From Avro Lancaster by Harry Holmes
# ME 578 50 Sq. Missing Frankfurt Mission 22/23 March,44
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 3rd May 2009, 22:57
ssg keay ssg keay is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 278
ssg keay
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Robert, I am fluent in German and can help out.
As the targer was Frankfurt am Main, I am suspecting the Vörden 37696 Marienmünster, Höxter, NRW, Germany site to be the proper one, even if that is quite a bit to the north. Vechta though is near Berlin and that would only fit if the target was Frankfurt an der Oder. Also, the crew is burried in the Reichswald War Cemetery, which indicates that it could not be Frankfuet an der Oder, or they would be burried in Berlin War Cemetery. Also, realize, Mr.Chorley transcribed data and if the ORB had spelling errors, then those sometimes got transcribed along. Example, Wellington X3360, lost over Budberg, in reality, lost over Bedburg. Small error, but 50km difference. Danny
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 4th May 2009, 19:27
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 588
Horst Weber
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssg keay View Post
Robert, I am fluent in German and can help out.
As the targer was Frankfurt am Main, I am suspecting the Vörden 37696 Marienmünster, Höxter, NRW, Germany site to be the proper one, even if that is quite a bit to the north. Vechta though is near Berlin and that would only fit if the target was Frankfurt an der Oder. Also, the crew is burried in the Reichswald War Cemetery, which indicates that it could not be Frankfuet an der Oder, or they would be burried in Berlin War Cemetery. Also, realize, Mr.Chorley transcribed data and if the ORB had spelling errors, then those sometimes got transcribed along. Example, Wellington X3360, lost over Budberg, in reality, lost over Bedburg. Small error, but 50km difference. Danny
Gentlemen !

The target 22/23 March 1944 was Frankfurt on the Main river. This is a fact.
As in this night a RAF Halifax (LW512) of No. 78 Squadron came down by nightfighters is my area in Germany, I have the track-chart of No. 78 Squadron for this night.
From takeoff the track went due East to a point NNW of Bremen, well over the Nortsea, but pretty close to the coast. Here a sharp turn southward was taken and very close west along Bremen, the bomber stream headed the whole way due southbound to the target Frankfurt.

In the general area of this track, you'll find 49434 Neuenkirchen-Vörden, Diepholz, Steinfeld etc.

About 100 km southbound of the track, you'll find 37696 Marienmünster-Vörden in the general area of the track to Frankfurt that night, also.

In the track-chart, the bomber stream didn't touch the The Netherlands, though I would exclude this opinion.

Hope, this helps.

All the best !

Horst Weber
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 6th May 2009, 09:36
Henk Welting Henk Welting is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 415
Henk Welting is on a distinguished road
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

ME578 was as far as I know shot down by Ofw Frank of 3./NJG3 and crashed 21.30h at Campermoor near Vörden (Neuenkirchen - Niedersachsen). From NEAL, WEBB and SEDDON it's known that they could have been identified and initially buried in a temporary military cemetery near the airfield Achmer; reburials to Kleve 12-2-1946.
Regards,
Henk.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 6th May 2009, 23:19
rlapes rlapes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: West Wilts, UK.
Posts: 34
rlapes is on a distinguished road
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Thanks folks I really appreciate your help.

ME578 was probably the first aircraft claimed by enemy action that night. Interestingly it had an 8 man crew that night 18% (6/33) of a/c lost that night had 8-man crews. Most were in the first wave, either PFF, PFF supporters or special duties e.g. reporting wind conditions. From what I've read recently NJG tactics were to disrupt the front of the bomber stream as much as possible.

Ofw Frank of 3./NJG3 claims it at 21:18 in box GR-2 and it crashes at about 21:30 at Campermoor near Vörden (Neuenkirchen - Niedersachsen). Campermoor is less than 20km from the GR-2 (about 5mins flying time). So a crash time of 21:25 is probably a good estimate.

A Lacaster from 5 grp reports "A/c shotdown by flak. 1 parachute seen." at 21:20 it's position was 5222:0804 between Engter and Rulle just 12km South of the crash site.

Would have been easy to confuse a flak and a nightfighter attack?

Does anyone have any details on what a/c Rudolf Frank was flying?

Thanks
Robert
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18th January 2010, 00:22
rlapes rlapes is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: West Wilts, UK.
Posts: 34
rlapes is on a distinguished road
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

Hi folks
I recently received my copies of Boiten & MacKenzie's Nachtjagd War Diaries and whilst answering many questions it also raises one or two.

Their claims list shows a slightly different time:
Ofw. Rudolf Frank 3/NJG3 Welplage, NE Osnabruck (GR-2) 6,000m 21:38 claiming ME578.

Tony Wood's list shows a time of 21:18.

Can anyone explain the discrepancy in the times?

Thanks
Robert
P.S. Was Frank flying a Bf110 ?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20th January 2010, 15:52
Larry Larry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Middlesex, England
Posts: 896
Larry is on a distinguished road
Re: Lancaster ME578 FTR 22 March 1944 - crash site confusion

According to my files 3/NJG3 was flying Bf 110G-4s at the time and I understand that it was while flying the Bf110 that Rudolf Frank claimed most of the 45 night victories with which he was credited.

Only Stab NJG3, II/NJG3 and IV/NJG3 had Ju88 at this time.

Also there were said to be a few Do 217 Nightfighters in NJG3 but I think it is unlikely Rudolf Frank was flying one in March 1944
__________________
Larry Hayward
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 791 21st January 2020 17:59
Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944 rlapes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 18 13th November 2010 20:20
Lancaster loss ND672 22/23 March 1944 FrankieS Allied and Soviet Air Forces 11 30th December 2009 17:58
RAF Lancaster Loss 22 March 1944 Peglar Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 27th March 2007 20:44
RAF 156 Sqdn Lancaster Crash Site Wayne Welford Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 2nd June 2006 18:12


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net