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  #61  
Old 18th September 2019, 15:50
Tony Kambic Tony Kambic is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Yes it is great to see this.

How about this for a new number: A589106 for a DB610.

I believe this is the one in storage at Garber from a He177. There are some instrument panels from the He177 on display at Udvar-Hazy.

Tony
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  #62  
Old 18th September 2019, 17:46
S Sheflin S Sheflin is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hello Tony,
Your new DB 610 number, A589106, is interesting because it is so different.
I have documented thirty-three DB 610 Motornummern so far. I have additional numbers that I have not yet entered.
Of these, 32 have MNrn. with 207 xxxxx prefixes. The exception is NiMo-built DB 610 B-1 MNr. 202 00022
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
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  #63  
Old 18th September 2019, 20:41
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Thanks for posting your info about the DB610 gentlemen! I have many questions about 610 engine numbers and dataplates. The DB610 was constructed from two DB605 engines, paired through a common drive to a single propeller. However, the two DB605 component engines were not standard DB605's . Probably for harmonic vibration reasons of the coupled engines, the firing order was changed from 1,8,5,10,3,7,6,11,2,9,4,12 of a standard DB605 to 1,11,2,9,4,7,6,8,5,10,3,12 of a DB610 component engine. The cylinders are numbered right bank 1-6 and left bank 7-12, both bank numbering starting at the front. This firing difference was achieved with the same crank but, the camshafts, ignition harness and injection pump delivery plumbing had to change to match the changed firing order. Additionally, the righthand component engine had a complete mirror arrangement of supercharger, boost pipes with throttles and rear gearcase to accommodate its air inlet on the righthand side instead of the left side. The component engines were designated DB605W and DB605X for left and right component engine. Now, this leads me to ask how the engines were identified in practice? The DB type numbers for the component engines were DB605W and DB605X. Were these component engines given ID plates with this designation and numbering within the DB605 series? I can imagine that they did because, a problem with a component engine might require that it be exchanged for another. Did the DB610 complete "engine" have a complicated data plate (maybe on the combining gearhousing?) that listed the component engines fitted and, with spare spaces for changes to the component engines? Cheers

SM
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  #64  
Old 21st September 2019, 19:08
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

A small mystery. What kind of engine was this one, identified as "V 17"?
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  #65  
Old 22nd September 2019, 09:39
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
A small mystery. What kind of engine was this one, identified as "V 17"?
Hi Denes,
I only see a written title "Flugzeug Werk-Nr. 13878 Motor DB 605 A-1 Werk-Nr. V17".
From this I would expect this would be the Bf109 13878 with the engine prototype DB605 V17. However, if this is correct, I think the caption saying DB605 A-1 V17 is a little unusual. A-1 identifies an A-1 production engine. I believe that the prototype engines were DB605 V?? , initial 0 series engines were DB605 A-0.

Cheers

SM
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  #66  
Old 22nd September 2019, 09:44
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

The engine was not a prototype, it was a DB 605 A-1. The construction number was given as "V 17". The other engines in this list are identified with proper Werknummern, except for this one. That's why I sought the opinion of others, to solve this small "mystery".
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  #67  
Old 22nd September 2019, 11:41
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Denes,
The Werk.Nr V17 on the engine ID plate would be very unusual to see. Photos often show V engines with the V number painted/stenciled on the engine. However, I am not aware of any authentic photo's of V engines with their ID plates? I have tried to help with some info from a simple image of a typed caption with no other description or picture of the engine in question. I apologise if I am unable to answer your query. BTW, have you looked through the list of 744 odd DB601 and 605 engine Werk.Nr that Matti posted? Cheers

SM
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  #68  
Old 22nd September 2019, 12:32
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hello to all!
I have been trying to analyse the fantastic list of 744 DB601 and 605 engines posted by Matti Salonen at posts #13 and #19 on page 2 , Thanks Matti!
It is quickly apparent, even from the early DB601, that the engines have a wide range of numbers. I have decided to try and correlate these and fit the listing into a structure. For this stage, I am working on the DB601 listings as these are relatively easy to ID engine type from the Bf109 type and, these DB601's have the 5 digit numbers without complication. The data from Matti shows about 238 engines in the DB601A, N and E production. Although further DB601 types were produced, I consider that the spread of batch numbers would roughly incorporate the other versions and the Bf109 use would be the dominant user of the DB601. The 238 odd engine sample is AFAIK a random list and represents approx 1.25% of DB601 production. However, the numbers available to count here are still considerable and, given the random spread, seems a reasonable sample but, obviously all engines are not listed and the statistical accuracy is not absolute.
The data in the table progresses chronologically. The engine numbers start in blocks and, although this looks random at first glance, it can be seen that the way the numbers fall, reflects the way that the data was recorded, possibly from losses, and makes sense.
There appear to be very few obvious errors in the recorded numbers.
I deduced that the Block numbers were most likely in allocations of 10,000. I saw this through the rough sorting of the data. The Blocks are not all complete and, where a further higher number is not recorded, I take this as the last production. However, where subsequent Blocks follow closely or sequentially, I deduced that these Blocks were complete. The engine numbering continues through the Blocks as the different engine versions came on production ie. DB601A, DB601N and DB601E.
OK, I will be back later today with the results! Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 24th September 2019 at 11:40.
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  #69  
Old 22nd September 2019, 17:31
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

To continue, Looking at just the first 15 entries in the listing for the DB601A for instance shows engines with numbers in Blocks 1xxxx, 2xxxx, 3xxxx and 6xxxx, all the DB601A Block numbers with listings in fact. The low xxxx Block seems strange. This xxxx Block might have included the DB600 production which was mainly at Berlin Marienfelde (Werk 90) with 1,184 engines and Genshagen with 690 engines according to BIOS. This would still leave approx 8,000 available numbers in the xxxx Block. However, these sub 1xxxx numbers hardly appear, I can only see two possibles in this Bf109 listing, one of those is a repeat of the A/C number (7184) and probably an error, the other (2179) is shown as a DB601N which have no other low numbers but, there are many DB601N examples in the Block 2xxxx such as 21705 and so 2179 might be an error. Also, in the Bf110/Me410 listing there is 1295 and 6882. Now, 1295 should fall in the DB600 production (just 1,874 engines). I have seen a crashed DB601A which was built with DB600 cylinderblocks. I have no better info on these sub 1xxxx numbers. The listing is almost devoid of them, whereas it should have a reasonable number. I suspect that the DB600 was built in the easy days of just 4 figure numbering of the DB600 in just two factories and so engine numbering was simple. The multiple Block system of engine numbers allocated to individual factories would seem logical and could have been introduced with the changeover to the DB601 production. It should be realised that the engine numbering was a considerable production workload and administrative task. The engine numbers were stamped and etched onto almost all engine components. Overall, I want to see if I can correlate the number samples from the listing with engine production numbers and, possibly, production factory.
Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 24th September 2019 at 09:37.
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  #70  
Old 22nd September 2019, 19:19
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

After working on some preliminary sorting, I felt that I could see several number Blocks from the very start of the data, 7 June 1940. The Blocks are; 10xxx-19xxx, 20xxx-29xxx, 30xxx-39xxx and 60xxx-69xxx. As I mentioned previously, I considered the engine types commonly associated with the Bf109 type that was recorded with the engine number in the listing. The process is a little laborious. I started with the DB601A and found the following by taking the start of the block and the highest number in it for the DB601A:
1xxxx Block 1,829.
2xxxx Block 1,285.
3xxxx Block 1,282.
6xxxx Block 6,143.
This gave a Total DB601A range of Werk.Nr. of 10,539.
Next, I repeated this process for the DB601N. Result 2,998.
Then I completed the process for the DB601E. Result 5,943.
With the DB601E I found that the 7xxxx Block had come into use as the 6xxxx Block had all been used.
The overall total for DB601 numbering from evidence in the listing came to 19,480 engines. This compares very well with the post WW2 BIOS report listing of 19,180 DB601 engines total production. However, as I said earlier, the accuracy cannot be absolute but I think the close figures prove the basis of the Block engine numbering allocation of the DB601 series.
Working through the Block numbers against the BIOS report figures for individual production plants showed good relation to the analysis. The breakdown came out as follows:
10xxx-19xxx is Berlin Marienfelde.
20xxx-29xxx is Niedersachsische Brunswick.
30xxx-39xxx is Henschel Kassel.
60xxx-69xxx and 70xxx-79xxx is Genshagen (with almost 50% of production!). Cheers

SM

Just to note, I think it is worth pointing out that the number range of these Blocks used amounts to a possible 50,000 engine numbers but, the analysis using the listing data has produced a very close figure to another source of engine production figures totaling just over 19,000. I think this proves that the system of Werk.Nr. allocation is similar to my model.

Last edited by schwarze-man; 24th September 2019 at 11:48.
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