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  #71  
Old 22nd September 2019, 20:41
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwarze-man View Post
Hi Denes,
I only see a written title "Flugzeug Werk-Nr. 13878 Motor DB 605 A-1 Werk-Nr. V17".
From this I would expect this would be the Bf109 13878 with the engine prototype DB605 V17. However, if this is correct, I think the caption saying DB605 A-1 V17 is a little unusual. A-1 identifies an A-1 production engine. I believe that the prototype engines were DB605 V?? , initial 0 series engines were DB605 A-0.

Cheers

SM
In the book "Messerschmitt Bf 109, The Yugoslav Story, Operational Record 1939-1953, Volume II", by Ciglic, Savic and Micevski, in the list of Yugoslav AF register of Bf 109G, page 188, for the two-seat Bf-109G YAF s/n 9943 had DB 605 V13.
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  #72  
Old 22nd September 2019, 21:18
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

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Originally Posted by newcomer View Post
In the book "Messerschmitt Bf 109, The Yugoslav Story, Operational Record 1939-1953, Volume II", by Ciglic, Savic and Micevski, in the list of Yugoslav AF register of Bf 109G, page 188, for the two-seat Bf-109G YAF s/n 9943 had DB 605 V13.
Thanks for that. These details are interesting, especially if there is an explanation and photo's of the plates. Cheers

SM
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  #73  
Old 24th September 2019, 10:13
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Further to my posts #68, 69 and 70, I have further considered the apparent lack of low numbers from a xxxx ( up to 9999) Block. If the first 2,000 or so numbers were allocated to DB600 production, this would leave still leave 8,000 odd numbers unused. I do not think I have the evidence for the use of these numbers in this data. 8,000 would be nearly 80% of DB601A production. Plus the fact that the other engine numbers already add-up to the known production of DB601A, and also the DB601 production figures of all types. There are no "holes" in the production numbers. Now, there could well have been some carry-on numbering after the DB600 production, possibly before the full scale Block numbering was introduced. Maybe numbers were initially split in 5,000 Blocks, Marienfelde with 1 to 4999 and Genshagen with 5001 to 9999 ? I simply have no information about DB600 engine numbering. Overall though, if more than a few DB601's were produced with low numbering, there are two points: First, the total engine numbers from the overall engine numbering data would show it and, secondly, the low numbered engines would appear in the data in a statistical ratio, but they don't. Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 24th September 2019 at 11:53.
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  #74  
Old 24th September 2019, 10:37
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Just a general note. I am happy someone is looking, in details, at the German engine manufacturing and construction number sequences, as I feel this is a neglected topic, which should also be researched, not only the airframes. Thanks to all involved people, particularly to SM. I hope you will share your findings with us one day.
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  #75  
Old 24th September 2019, 15:09
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Thank you Denes. It is great that Matti was able to donate his resource of 750+ Bf109 airframes and engine numbers. I am not sure if any better record exists. Due to the complex and convoluted way that the later DB605 and DB603 engines were produced, I am certain that examination of those records will involve some contradictions and questions. However, I do think that some similar patterns will be revealed. Cheers

SM
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  #76  
Old 30th September 2019, 09:36
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

For the next stage of my analysis I am considering the engine numbers and production of the DB605A and B series, including the AS and AM types, as far as can be deduced. This is a somewhat complex topic, working with approx a 1% sample of numbers. The period includes the complications of Allied bombing disruption, wide dispersal of production, possible Axis jumbling of engine numbering, the introduction of the DB605D series engines and the shortage of production data for 1945. One other complication is the effect of DB610 engine production. The DB610 was a "Double" engine, consisting of a pair of DB605 engines on a common reduction gearbox. To suit the vibration characteristics of the paired engine, the component engines have a different firing order than a standard DB605. Also, the righthand had a mirror image rear gearhousing and supercharger etc, to suit the air inlet on the RHS. Now, after the curtailment of the He177 bomber programme, some spare DB610 engines were rebuilt as DB605A or B engines. These engines retained their different firing order and they have distinctive red painted instructions on their cylinderblocks to show the revised firing order for the mechanics. I will lookout for any evidence of these engines in the data but, I do suspect that they were re-processed back into the numbering system and may not appear as such? I would be grateful if anyone has more info on the Ex-610 605's?
To start, I am going to review the DB605 production plants listed in the BIOS post war report on Mercedes-Benz. Cheers

SM
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  #77  
Old 30th September 2019, 09:50
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

I would suggest to compile a table with ALL DB 605 engine manufacturers, their location, three-letter factory code and - possibly - the Werknummer sequence allocated to each of them. That would be a great support for further in-depth research.
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  #78  
Old 30th September 2019, 10:30
Tomislav Haramincic's Avatar
Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hello,

I have compiled such a table with the known DB605 engine manufactures based on the collected engine data.
Here is what I have so far:

Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo" (Braunschweig-Querum)
Factory code hss
Engine serial numbers:
2xxxx - A-1, B
20xxxx - A-1
002xxxx - A-1
112xxxx - D

Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel)
Factory code hsr
Engine serial numbers:
3xxxx - A-1
011xxxx - A-1, A-4, AM
0111xxxx - D-1, DB, DM, M

Donau-Flugzeugbau (Csepel-Budapest)
Factory code kwn
Engine serial numbers:
4xxxx - A-1
004xxxx - A-1, AM

Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH (Genshagen Kreis Teltow)
Factory code hsq
Engine serial numbers:
7xxxx - A-1
007xxxx - A-1, B-1, AM, ASM, AS0, ASM0, G
117xxxx - D, DB, DM, DM0

Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G. (Werk Steyr)
Factory code bnz
Engine serial numbers:
9xxxx - A-1 unconfirmed
019xxxx - A-1
119xxxx - D, DB

There are many DB605 engines in the 1xxxx and 10xxxx range for which I can't confirm the producer. It could be Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel) because they continued to use the "1" in their serial numbers of the later produced engines or it could be Daimler-Benz A.G., Werk 40 (Berlin-Marienfelde) cuw because they produced also the DB601 in the 1xxxx range. When compared, the serial number ranges of the DB605 and DB601 producers mostly match which would led me to the conclusion that each engine producer had a designated serial number range which was later extended with a prefix (0, 00, 11..) corresponding to the new engine subtype (for example, all DB605 D engine have the prefix 11).
Of course, all correction and new additions to this data is most welcome.

Last edited by Tomislav Haramincic; 1st October 2019 at 20:18.
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  #79  
Old 30th September 2019, 10:36
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

This is exactly what I was referring to, Tomislav! Many thanks for sharing.
We can now expand and update this list, as info is/will become available.
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  #80  
Old 30th September 2019, 11:55
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Thank you Tomislav,
I have deduced the same factory/engine code relationships for the DB601A-F so far. The 1xxxx block is, I think, Berlin Marienfelde Werk 90 but this has very few numbers in the data that I have, despite production of 1,184 DB600 and 2,762 DB601. BTW, Werke 40 was the Truck plant-although who knows if they made parts for the Aero engine Werke at times?
May I ask if your factory (the three-letter Hersteller) code info is rock solid? I don't have much independent cross-reference on those?
Thanks for posting your info, I am trying to corelate all my data independently and see how the 605 info ties in. Cheers

Best Wishes

SM
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