Dornier 17Z F1+FH markings 15th Sept 1940.

[Phil Lloyd]

Hi all,

I have been researching the markings of Dornier 17Z-1 (F1+FH) which belonged to I Gruppe KG76, (famously shot down over London on September 15th 1940) and was hoping you may be able to shed some light on a few questions I have.

Attached is a 3 view image which I have roughly edited in photoshop to show my thoughts and would be grateful for any comment. I have listed a couple of questions/research info below to explain:-

-Were the fin/rudder pink tactical markings painted on both sides of the aircraft?
The well known rooftop photo of the port fin/rudder of F1+FH confirms these were painted on the port side but I can find no photo evidence of any a/c with both port and starboard painted, even though many artworks/models include both sides.

-Would the upper wing oblong have been on the left or right wing?
I believe this was to show the a/c position within the formation. Rolf Heitschs 'flamethrower' KG76 machine had the pink oblong on the port wing inboard of the cross.

-Would the upper wing F (if carried) have been in white as well?

-Was it standard to have the fuselage band carried on all KG76 aircraft?

-The spinners appear to have only had the tip painted white. One of them was taken as a souvenir and now resides in the RAFM collection. A photo of it is shown in the Blitz then and now vol 2.

Many thanks for any help
Cheers
Phil

[obdl3945]

Hi, Phil...

I'm not entirely sure if you're specifically asking about F1+FH but on the basis you're not, here goes...

I have seen horizontal bars on the right side of Do17Z tailplanes but whether or not they appeared on both outsides of the fin/rudder, I can't confirm. I've always presumed they did, for some reason.

Formation bars on wing uppersurfaces have been noted on the right wing, outboard of the national marking as well as other presentations - famous BoB image from another aircraft looking down on London on 15.9.1940 with two Do17s in the frame confirm this.

Specific to F1+FH, the upper wing 'F', if carried would most likely have been rendered in white, confirming the Staffel status. Similarly, spinners (completely or partially) would likely have carried white on them as a further confirmation of the Staffel.

KG76's fuselage bands appear to have been changeable in colour - sometimes yellow or red as well as white and to my knowledge, always positioned on the rear fuselage immediately behind the wing trailing edge.


Regards,

Paul

[Larry Hickey]

Phil/Paul,

For the EoE Project, we're going to do a profile of this a/c. Drawing on 39 images for 1./KG76 and over 600 for the entire Geschwader in our EoE Photo DB, I have the following observations (without looking at all 600 images, but about 150 of those and all 39 for 1 Staffel).

1) I./KG76 a/c had solid prop spinner colors in the Staffel colors. So 1 Staffel always shows as solid white prop spinner, not partially white.

2) The fuselage band just behind the wing roots was in the Staffel color, NOT the Gr color, as in other units (ie. KG2 and 54). So the band on F1+FH is correctly shown as white, which also would happen to be the Gruppe color, but isn't related to that issue. The width of the band varies somewhat from example to example, but I think that you've shown it a little thicker than it should be. It is more typically the width of the main stroke on the "1" in the "F1" Gesch code. That makes it fairly thin compared to the bands on a/c such as even KG2.

3) The underwing a/c code letter would be in black--numerous examples.

4) Top wing code letter "F" should be closer to the wing tips and were also probably be black. I've seen no top wing letters that I could ID as white, red or yellow--they all appear to be black--but this is from a fairly limited statistical sample.

5) Regarding the September tactical "pink" bar, these appear to be specific to each Geschwader that used them, and the only thing that I can confirm is the position of the horizontal bar on the port side, which is visible in the photo. The rectangular bar on the wing appears to be the same on a/c of both I and III Gruppe of KG76, but the photos of examples for this in KG76 are so limited it's hard to define these precisely.

If you have further questions, post them.

[obdl3945]

Hi, Larry...

Thanks for your post. I've adjusted mine as it was not as accurate as the information you provided and I felt it best not to have conflicting (and inaccurate) details showing. Interesting to learn about the fuslage bands being Staffel identifiers... noted for future reference.

Regards,

Paul

[Phil Lloyd]

Hi Paul/Larry,

Thanks for your replies, great information. I have uploaded a set of photos (with acknowledgements) which you may find interesting. I have included what I know about them below:-

1)Does anyone know the ident of the KG76 Dornier behind Oblt Niebler and his crew? It was taken by Theodor Rehm at Beauvais on the morning of 15th Sept. On the original print is an E underneath the wing (possibley F1+EH?). Incidentally three of the men in this picture were killed in action about 2 hours later. The Dornier appears to have white tipped spinners.
(Battle of Britain Day - Alfred Price)

2)The crashed dornier F1+JK took part in the morning raid, making a crashed landing in France. Interestingly the swastika has been painted over? but you can just make out the port wing tactical bar and possibly one centered on the rudder. (Battle of Britain Day - Alfred Price)

3)The spinner is believed to be from F1+FH, which was taken as a souvenir by a police constable and is now part of the RAFM collection. (Blitz-Then and Now Vol 2)

4)The Dornier with flame from the tail is an air test of the Dornier flown by Rolf Hetisch. Note the spinner from the chase Dornier.
Incidentally I have a colour test film of one of these being tested from a He111 if anyone would like a link to the German dvd)
(Battle of Britain Day - Alfred Price)

5)The Dornier tail of this KG3 machine may show a tactical rudder marking over painted for night operations?
(Blitz-Then and Now Vol 2)

6)This well known shot of a KG3 Dornier burning itself out on Sandwich Sands on 31st August shows the individual a/c letter 'L' in a light staffel/gruppe colour outboard of the cross? (Blitz-Then and Now Vol 1)

Thanks
Phil

[Phil Lloyd]

Dornier tail picture attached. Info in post above.

[Chris Goss]

I now have the original photos 1 & 2. Rehm said the Do 17 was Niebler's-I cannot make out any letters under the wing on the original photo!
As to photo 2, there are a series of photos but only this one shows the upper wing markings

[Phil Lloyd]

Hi Chris,

I have ringed what I think maybe a letter; as you say, if Nieblers a/c was F1+FL I wonder if it could be an 'F'?

[Phil Lloyd]

Hi all,

I have recently read Nigel Parkers excellent 'Luftwaffe Crashes Vol 4' and was interested to read that this a/c was reported to have a number 7 painted outboard of the upper wing cross.

Assuming this was a wing from F1+FH and the information was noted correctly at the time I'd be interested to know if anyone else has heard of or seen images of bombers with these type of markings during the 1940 period.

I would also be very interested to hear if there exist any other I/KG76 images.

Many thanks for any help.

Cheers
Phil

[Larry Hickey]

Phil,

A 1940 search of the "Eagles Over Europe" photo DB for I./KG76 photos returns 108 images. There are many examples of a/c from all three Staffel, plus the Stab carrying the rare "Florian Geyer" Gr insignia (before it became the Gesch insignia). So, there is no shortage of known images from I./KG76. I show 10 images just for F1+FH, including both before and after it was shot down. I'm aware of the report of the "7" painted on the wing, but none of the EoE collection photos show this marking. The outboard wings on both sides of F1+FH were sheared away as the a/c fell to earth, so these do not appear in any photos of the main part of the crash wreckage. The crash investigators must have found one of the wingtips separated from the main wreckage to have observed this.

In the photos ground, including one with its crew, at a LW base before it crashed, no wing top surfaces are visible. They do show the 1 Staffel devil insignia on the forward fuselage, and white prop spinners and fuselage code letter "F."

Chris, regarding the photo you sent me of F1+JK, curiously, the swastika is now shown on the tail. Does it appear in any photos that you have of this a/c? A color profile is planned for that a/c, and knowing whether the swastika was tail centered or fin only is essential go getting this right.

Regards,