Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th March 2010, 13:39
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 117
Gizmo
D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Hi,


I have a problem with JG 2 Losses on D-Day.
Osprey JG 2 book by John Weal claimed that only two Fw 190 were lost by JG 2 on D-Day, both of them as non-combat losses.
Jg 26 volume 2 by Donald Caldwell claims 9 Fw 190 lost by JG 2 what seems to by true - 7 shot down by Allied fighters (see below) and two crashed/downed by Flak as claimed Weal

As I know 'Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den (fliegende) Verbänden" claimed loss of only 5 JG 2s Fw 190:
-one from 3./JG 2 (Nancy-Creil FP), apparently plane claimed by Weal as crashed en route flight from nancy to Creil
-two from 11./JG 2 (Buc b. and Rouen S). Second of them seems to be a/c claimed by weal as a/c shot down by own Flak south of Rouen
-two from 12./JG 2


Here is my analysis of JG 2 D-Day air combats.

Sources:
"2nd TAF vol 1" by Christopcher Shores,
"Fighter Pilots and Units of the 8th USAAF" by Kent.D. Miller
"JG 26 vol 2" by Donald Caldwell
"Over the Beaches" by John Foreman
Luftwaffe claim list by Tonny Woods


Around 7.00
Lt. Thomas E. Fraser from 4. FG is missing. Millers book claimed this a/c as shot down by fighters, but there is no Luftwaffe claims at this time. Fraser belly landed near Campari (western France!) and was captured. His P-51 was flying at Rechlin Luftwaffe research center as a T9+HK plane.

-------------------------------------
Around 12.00-12.30
Three Typhoons downed by "by 109" (Fw 190 in fact). F/L R. W. Wvans (MN4320), F/O A. R. Taylor (R8973) and F/O M. H. Gee (MN478) all KIA.
Four German claims for Typhoons: Hptm. Herberta Huppertza III/JG 2 CO (x2), Gefr. Manfred Fieseler 10./JG 2 and Ofw. Lüdwig Hartmann Stab I/JG 2.
At this same same time Major Kurt Bühligen JG 2 CO, and Uffz. Romauld Nistler Stab I/JG 2 claimed "P-47" but no losses of this type due air combat for 6th June.
At 12. 30 Lt. W. W. McElhare 62. FS/56. FG claimed Fw 190
F-6s (recon P-51) pilots of 15.TRS, claimed 3-0-1 Fw 190s over Dreux and Laval. Claimers: Lt. J. E. Conklin, Lt. C. B. East i Lt. F. M. Schonard.

--------------------------------------

Around 16.30
83. FS/78. FG bounced over Mayenne group of 8-12 Fw 190 and claimed two Fw 190 for Col. F. C. Gray and Lt. P. A. Caulfield (0.5 kill each) and Lt. P. A. Caulfield (full kill)
---------------------------------------

17.25
Major Erich Hohagen Stab I/JG 2 claimed a Typhoon fighter around Beaumont-le-Roger; in this same place and time Mustang I of 430 Sqn (AG465 F/O J. S. Cox KIA) was shot down by Fw 190.

---------------------------------------
18.20
Hptm. Huppertz shot down Typhoon (MN 454, F/O A. E. Roberts KIA) of 164. Sqn.
One of Fw 190s was claimed in return by S/L R. H. Beake.
---------------------------------------
Around 20.00-21.00
Hptm. Huppertz lead formation of five Fw 190 from III/JG 2 and three more from I/JG 2 At 20.35 Huppertz claimed a P-51. At this same time a pair of P-51B from 334. FS/4. FG was bounced and shot down by fighters (43-6898 piloted by Maj. Sobiański,and 43-6957 piloted by Lt. Steppe, both KIA.) No other JG 2 claim at this time. At 20.54 this same German formation bounced flight from 335.FS/4. FG and shot down three P-51B ( Capt. B. McGrattan 42-106576), F/O Walter Smith (43-7172) and Lt. Harold Ross (42-106786); all KIA. Also Lt. C. E. Garbey piloted a 334. FS P-51B 43-6575 was KIA (by fighters acording to Miller book)
JG 2 claims;
06.06.44 Hptm. Herbert Huppertz Stab III./JG 2 P-51 �� 3 km. N.W. Évreux: 500 m. 20.35 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.66
06.06.44 Fhr. Fritz Beer Stab I./JG 2 P-51 �� UB Raum Bernay: 500 m. 20.56 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.95
06.06.44 Ltn. Eickhoff Stab I./JG 2 P-51 �� Raum Bernay: 600 m. 20.54 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.94
06.06.44 Hptm. Herbert Huppertz Stab III./JG 2 P-47 �� UC 10 km. W.N.W. Evreux: 600 m. 20.59 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.67
06.06.44 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Voormann 12./JG 2 P-51 �� 10 km. N.W. Evreux: 1.200-1.500 m. 21.03 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.92
06.06.44 Uffz. Karl Biehlolawek 12./JG 2 P-51 �� 15 km. N.W. Evreux: 800-1.000 m. 21.04 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.93
06.06.44 Fw. Fritz Schüler 12./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7.3: 800 m. 12 km. N.W. Évreux 21.04 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.94
06.06.44 Oblt. Siekmann 9./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7: 1.000 m. [bei Evreux] 21.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.105
06.06.44 Fw. Otto Müller 12./JG 2 Typhoon �� UC-7.2: 800-1.000 m. 10 km. N.W. Evreux 21.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr.95.
06.06.44 Ltn. E. Fischer I./JG 2 P-51 �� Bernay 20.56 Reference: JG 2 MSS Lists


Allied claims:
21.00: Capt. Boleslawa Gladych, 56. FG USAAF" 1 Bf 109 shot down. His combat report at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ch-6june44.jpg
21.15: W/O W. E. Rigby, 129. Sqn RAF: 1 Fw 190 shot down


Summary:
Of 18 fighters claimed by JG 2 pilots , 11 seems to be confirmed from RAF and USAAF sources.
Allied pilots claimed 9 Fw 190, 7 of them presumably against JG 2 planes, two others were claimed by 352. FG against JG 26 planes ( one shot down in fact).

Gladych Bf 109 claim is presumably 3./NAGr 13 reconnaissance plane. As I know this Staffel lost two planes on 6 th June, but no other details. Anyone can help ?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 9th March 2010, 07:17
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,378
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Gizmo,

One comment is that Lt. Fraser obviously landed his P-51 wheels down, that is, made a normal landing. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe would never have been able to fly his P-51 out of France on June 7,1944 as they did.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10th March 2010, 13:45
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 117
Gizmo
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Thanks for your comment, as well answer my KG 2 question.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10th March 2010, 14:06
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,110
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

On 6.june losses for the NAGr.13 pres. 3.staffel were

3 NAGr,13 X Luftangriff BF109G 710064 100 %
3 NAGr,13 X N F BF109G 710067 30 %

First one destroyed at airplace, second forcedlanded due to ennemy

Rémi
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th March 2010, 18:00
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,034
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Hi Gizmo

Bergström identified the opponents of Huppertz on 6 June 1944 as being:
  • P-47 fighters of 365 FG, USAAF and Typhoon fighters of 183 Sqn, RAF during which JG 2 claimed six and lost one whereas actual Allied losses in this engagement were two P-47 fighters and three Typhoon fighters, including two by Huppertz.
  • Typhoon fighters of 164 Sqn, RAF and one was shot down by Huppertz (F/O Roberts)
  • P-51 fighters of 4 FG, USAAF and 352 FG, USAAF and P-47 fighters of the 56 FG, USAAF and Typhoon fighters of the 2 TAF with one each of the USAAF fighters claimed by Huppertz who was leading a composite formation from JG 2 and 2./JG 26.
The original post can be seen at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=625 I have no idea if this information is correct but perhaps you would be interested in it.

Horrido!

Leo

Last edited by Leo Etgen; 11th March 2010 at 07:32.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th March 2010, 20:51
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 117
Gizmo
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Hi,

Thanks for answers.
As I know both 365th pilots were killed by theirs own bombs blast (see below). According to Miller book, both 352nd P-51Bs (piloted by Lt. Buller and Lt O'Nan, both POW), were claimed as shot down by Flak.
I'm going to buy "Angels Eight: Normandy Air War Diary" book to check Mr. Bergströms informations.
--------
"First Lt. Jack J. Martell deliberately dropped his 500-pound bombs from just a few feet in the air. The delay fuses malfunctioned, and Lt. Martell’s plane was caught in the blast and debris from the twin explosions. He crashed in flames on the outskirts of St. Lo.

Another Hell Hawk fell near St. Sauveur de Pierre Pont. The bombs of 1st Lt. Robert L. Shipe from York, Pa., also detonated prematurely, and Lt. Shipe’s P-47 slammed into a field. French villagers recovered the pilot’s body and tended Lt. Shipe’s grave until Allied forces broke through."

Source: http://skywalking1.wordpress.com/200...-path-for-gis/

Last edited by Gizmo; 10th March 2010 at 22:00.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11th March 2010, 02:24
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,378
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

I have "Angels Eight: Normandy Air War Diary" and I don't believe it's a reliable source. Save your money. Get it through ILL (Interlibrary Loan) if you want to examine it.

The 365th P-47s were NOT lost to enemy fighters. I went through the all the losses for P-47s on D-Day and only found one that maybe could have been shot down by enemy fighters. The MACR just listed it as missing-cause unknown.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th March 2010, 07:44
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,034
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Hi guys

In all fairness, I should point out that Bergström states in the thread that he used Clark's information both from the book and the CD of claims and losses, which he admits contain errors, as only two of several sources by which he arrived at his conclusions. He also states that sorting out the details of aerial combat on D-Day is very difficult due to the large number of aircraft involved as well as errors in dates and times and imprecise locations in the records. Grabowski as well stated that matching the aerial combat of the day using various other sources is very difficult. I applaud Gizmo for making the attempt!

Horrido!

Leo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11th March 2010, 22:00
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 117
Gizmo
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

kaki3152,
All five 9th USAAF missing P-47s were from Groups attributed to fighter-bomber missions over areas of three (western) US beaches. Luftwaffe pilots claimed theirs victories east of Caen, no way that they shot down any 9th USAAF P-47.
Some of four P-47s claimed by 8th USAAF as shot down by Flak are more likely candidates for victims of JG 2 fighters.

Edit:
After some time for playing with googlemaps, I found that all crashsites of 8th USAAF P-47s are situated at least around 100 kilometers far away from Caen, and for now I can tell that Buhligen probably did not shot down P-47. So Typhoon is my type.

Last edited by Gizmo; 11th March 2010 at 22:47.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12th March 2010, 06:30
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,378
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: D-Day JG 2 and NAGr 13 losses

Gizmo,

That is the conclusion I came to some time ago. Given the times and locations, Buhlingen's victory had to be a Typhoon.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net