Help with unidentified plates

[Freddy]

A few days ago I was contacted by a researcher from the Verona area who asked me if I could help him identifying a plane, certainly German, that crashed, probably between the middle and the last months of 1944 or early 1945, in the vicinity of the hamlet Contrada Morago, about 15 km north east of Verona.
The testimonies collected among elderly people or by descendants of eyewitnesses of the time, spoke of a not very big plane, it had at least two people on board (one of whom bailed out), and that the crash had occurred before dark but still with enough daylight.
After making a couple of turns over the houses, the plane, that had a burning engine, crashed into the hillside and then the debris rolled into the gully below. The plane probably had a technical fault as there were no enemy aircraft in the sky and not even ground fire by partisans.
Piero, in his post says that the crash took place in the Montorio area, that is in the eastern outskirts of Verona, but this is instead the place where the person who provided him with the photos lives.
The same person sent those same photos (along with many others) to me as well, in the hope that they would be useful to me in discovering what plane it was and, hopefully, the exact date of the crash, the names of the crew members, and the unit of belonging.
I must admit that, in a first time, considering that the witnesses were talking about a not large plane, with probably two people on board, and that among the pieces recovered there were three hydraulic fittings marked Argus, I had thought of a Fieseler Fi 156 Storch.
Subsequently, having ascertained that Argus fittings had been found at the crash point of a Ju 88 (the company that produced the fittings was not, in fact, Argus Motoren Gmbh, but another, still active today, the Argus Gmbh of Ettingen which produced precisely hydraulic fittings), I had thought of a Ju 87.
Unfortunately, this track too had turned out to be wrong and, looking for references about a kind of hydraulic pump or valve that appeared in some of the photos, I came to the conclusion that, despite what the witnesses said, almost certainly that plane was a Ju 88 or, also, a Ju 188.
I must say that, with regard to the three photos posted by Piero, I too was able, even if not with the details provided in the following posts, to understand what parts they were, but the confirmation of a Ju 88/188 came from the consultation of the Ju 88A-4 Teil 9C manual “Hydraulische Anlage (Druckölanlage)” in which, on page 9C50, the hydraulic valve, that was part of the airbrake control on the left wing, is reproduced exactly. (I couldn’t find a similar item in other aircraft manuals).
See photos IMG20220802225315.jpg, IMG20220803220343.jpg and page 9C50.jpg.
Having established, therefore, that, almost certainly, the plane crashed in Morago was a Ju 88 or a Ju188, I just have to find out which plane it was, the unit it belonged to and, if possible, the names and fate of its crewmembers. Quite a difficult research.
After an unsuccessful search on various sites on the Internet (during which I found this thread), I then consulted the books Air War Italy 1944-45 and Mediterranean Air War 1944-1945 volumes 4 and 5 but I didn’t yield any certain results.
I found a Ju 88, WkN 140527 lost by II/Lg1 that took off from Villafranca, Verona on June 3, 1944. All crew MIA or KIA. On July 24, 1944, 6 (F)./122 had lost a Ju 88 in a non-operational flight. No other details are provided. I found also various possible cases up to the beginning of 1945 but even in these occurrences there are no useful indications to establish the identity of the aircraft, the circumstances and the place of the crash.
I would be very grateful if any member of the forum could provide me with more information.

Freddy

PS: Among those photos sent to me there are also two relating to a piece, presumably from an engine, which I have not been able to identify. These are the photos IMG20220605192118.jpg and IMG20220605192123.jpg. Is it possible that someone in the forum can recognize the part?


Now I noticed that the photos I attached using Flikr are not shown. I would like to post the immages directly from my PC but couldn't find the way to do this so I tried with Flikr but with no resuts. Where I was wrong? Can anyone help me?

PS: I have an album on this forum that is Ju 88 Verona but I don't understand how to use it for attaching photos.

[schwarze-man]

Hi Freddy,
The two photo's ending 2118 and 2123 are one of the balance weights from a JUMO 211 Crankshaft.

Cheers

SM

[Freddy]

Thank you, I supposed something like.
I'm wondering, where did you see those pictures? I cannot see none on the post.

[schwarze-man]

The photo's open on that flickr link at the bottom of the post, for me on my computer.

SM

[Freddy]

Thanks for the immediate reply.
I didn't understand if you only see the links or even the images.
Unfortunately, on my monitor, neither the links nor the photos appear.
Thinking it was a Firefox browser problem, I also tried with Chrome but it doesn't work with that either.

In other forums where I have intervened, the photos are uploaded and seen without problems.

Today I opened a new thread in the General section to report my problem and ask for help or to get suggestions for a possible solution.
Hopefully someone can explain to me where I went wrong.

[Freddy]

Maybe I found a possible clue for the identification of the Ju 88 of which I tried to post photos of some parts.
I would therefore need some help because there are two different indications of the crash point in the sources that mention it.
Yesterday I came into possession of new information from an elderly gentleman (93 years old) who had been one of the eyewitnesses. Although almost 80 years have passed since those events, he remembers, better than all the other witnesses, many details of the fact.

From his interview it was possible to know:
1) That the plane crashed at night, around 10.30 pm.
2) That it was a very cold day, probably in late Autumn.
3) That was the end of 1943.
4) That the plane was flying at a very low altitude and that it was, apparently, in trouble.
5) That one of the engines was on fire.
6) That had turned a couple of times over the houses, grazing the church tower before hitting, with a wing, against the slope of the hill.
7) That it had disintegrated in the impact and that the pieces had slipped down the slope to the gully below.
8) That he was definitely German.
9) That the Germans did not intervene immediately but only a few days later to recover the dead and to take away the wreckage.
10) That he, who was watching from a few hundred meters away, had not seen any crew member bailing out, as someone else had said, but indeed, that the altitude was so low that it would have been impossible for a parachute to open.
11) That the plane, certainly, was not small, indeed, that it was large and with two, or perhaps three engines. However, when he was shown photos of some German planes, he immediately recognized the plane as a Ju 88.

On the basis of this new data, and with the definitive confirmation of my first hypothesis about a Ju 88, I started a new research, this time however concerning the crashes of the end of 1943.
I found a lot of data but most of them indicated losses occurred in central or southern Italy, in France or in the Mediterranean but, on the date of November 30, 1943, in "A History of the Mediterranean Air War", Vol 4, page 453 , under "German losses" I found:

"I./KG 76 - Ju 88A-4 WNr 800940 (F1+CB)? lost near Monte Cancello; Hptm Hans Coym (GrKdr) and three KIA"

On the other hand, a subsequent verification in other sources showed that the plane had crashed instead at Monte Cavallo.
In Italy there is more than one place called Monte Cavallo and the closest to Villaorba airport (Udine area), where the I./KG 76 was based, is above Aviano, about 10 km north west of Aviano airport.
Other Monte Cavallo are located either in the vicinity of Bolzano or in central Italy.

Strange, however, that in "History ..." is indicated Monte Cancello unlike other sources.
However, it must be said that the crash point found is near Morago which is a small village lower than the town of Cancello, on which it administratively depends and which is about 1 km north of Morago.
Among other things Cancello is placed on the top of a hill and in the German report may have been referred to it as a mountain.
Unfortunately I do not have to my disposition the “Ju 88 Loss List” to which it refers the Luftwaffe Kracker Archive in the note regarding the Hptm Hans Koym, so I am not able to verify if in the original German report about the loss of the plane, it was written Cancello or Cavallo.
If, in fact, the name of the location was the one indicated in the book, then there would be a good chance that the plane we are looking for was that of Hans Kojm.
If someone has a copy of the loss report, I would be very grateful if he would let me know what exactly is written about the crash position.
Thanks in advance.

[edNorth]

(via Salonen NVM KG 76): Nordhang Monte Castellat, 5 km ostnordöstlich Monte Cavallo. There is amendment in losses 18.06.44 but that doc does not exist in BAMA (part of the missing 1944 losses.)

This translates as Northcliff (of) Monte Castellat, 5 km east-north-east Monte Cavallo.

Ed

[Freddy]

What a disappointment!
I had so much hoped that had been written “Monte Cancello” and therefore that we were able to find that Ju 88. Unfortunately it went badly.
Obviously what is shown in Mediterranean Ai War is a transcription error.
I checked where Monte Castellat is (the real name is Cjastelat) and it is really 5.5 km east-northeast of the top of Monte Cavallo and about 4 km south of the lake of Barcis. It is a wooded and almost inaccessible area so, probably the remains of the plane could still be in those woods.
In my database of the planes crashed in Friuli during the last war, among the hundreds of documented cases found in the last thirty years, this plane does not appear.
The data collected was found in documents of the time and, in the majority, from local testimonies gathered during interviews with people who had seen the crashes with their own eyes.
In this case, instead, it would seem that no one was aware of that Ju 88.
Now, for me, the search starts again but I fear that like many other times in the past, it will remain without an answer.
Thanks again for the invaluable help.


PS: One more curiosity. In the Aircrew Remembrance Society it would appear that the Verbandkenzeichen F1+CB had been used, as well as for this Ju 88, also for two other aircraft of the same type and unit, one lost in 1941 and the other in 1942. Is it possible? I admit that I don't know much about this topic and it seems strange to me that the same markings had been used multiple times.

[edNorth]

Verband codes are used again when plane crashes or transferred. Stammkz. were supposed be Safety code, but when Vbkz was painted, sometimes only two were changed first (like Ju 88 A-14 0880144678 NK+VC becomimg 3E+VC then 3E+CR at JFM Reims before going on operations and lost 4 days later.

OK what I gather for F1+CB was it was not found untill later, amd is unclear but changes missing crew to dead crew (all KIA)
What has been taken as holy in the past, is not necssisarly so.
I also make mistakes. Mass media authors also write lots of crap (questions do not always solve obscue problems.)

[Freddy]

Thank you very much for the clarification. Today I learned something new. I had always thought that the Vbkz were something similar and alternative to the Stammkennzeichen which, if I'm not mistaken, instead were unique for each single plane