7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List

[Rob Romero]

As usual Nokose. Many Thanks

[Nokose]

Rob, in the same battle Fw. Emil Zibler 9./JG3 claimed his 34th victory over a La-5 at 4:25 w. of Krasny Liman. Not for want of trying on his part, Ml.Lt. Kalsin in his La-5 from the 5 GIAP got away. WIA by splinters in the right arm, his La-5 had 13 holes in the fuselage, 4 in the motor and 2 in the planes.

The Soviet pilots claimed to have shot down two Bf 109. Kapt. Verteletskiy of the 5 GIAP one Bf 109 at Pervomayskoe. Ml. Lt. Sergey Grigorevich Glinkin 5 GIAP his 5th a Bf 109 2-3 km SW of Mayaki. I'm not sure of these locations compared to Sslawjansk but I believe that Uffz Oskar Loeffler 8./JG3 in Bf 109G-4 (19339) 100% 10 km SE of Sslawjansk might have been from Glinkin. It lists the cause as "Erdabwehr bei Tierfangriff, Ueberschlag Notandung" (My German is not good at all, sorry).

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Nokose

"Erdabwehr bei Tierfangriff, Ueberschlag Notandung"

It means "shot down from the ground during attacking ground targets, overturned during emergency landing."

Michael, do you use the russian personal loss data base for your search?

[Nokose]

Only for getting the full names, unit, rank and date correct from the OBD. This case was from a Russian published source and from confirming somethings in the new JFV 12/I. There was mention of two Bf 109s strafing a downed "Boston" on the ground after it forced landed but that was in Russian territory. Maybe Nikita knows if the location of Glinkin's claim is in the same spot.

[Nikita Egorov]

Michael,

This was in one and the same combat between 4.45-5.50 (M.T.). 244 BAD lost two B-3 to fighters, 1 B-3 to Flak, two more B-3 conducted belly landings. No losses among fighters of 5 GIAP and 867 IAP reported.

[Nokose]

Thank you Nikita. Oleg Rastrenin's description is what I when on here.

"After the bomb release the first formation of nine (led by regiment commander Mayor Nikiforov) was attacked by a German fighter group of 9 Bf 109 and FW 190. The fighters approached from the direction of Kramatorsk airfield and attacked the Soviet bombers from behind and below. The first attack has set on fire Mladshiy Leytenant Baykov's aircraft. The right motor caught fire. According to the testimony of the returning crews, he tried to knock down the flames, but fell into a tailspin, and burning he crashed into ravine near State Farm #5 within 3-4 km from the village of Yasnaya Gorka. From the the aircraft jumped one parachutist. In all likelyhood, this was the navigator of the crew Starshina Smirnov.
Almost simultaneously caught fire the "Boston: of Starshina Zhivulin's from the composition of the third section. The right wing caught on fire on his aircraft. Apparently, there was a hit and the right fuel tank caught fire. On the report of the regiment commander Mayor Nikiforov, Starshina Zhivulin with a decline stretched it out to his territory, at 3 km northwest of the populated area of Bogorodichnoe, he touched the tree tops, he fell and exploded. The front line remained only 200-300 meters away."

[Nokose]

I don't think the Luftwaffe had any FW 190 in this battle unless there was a SG unit there.

"Air gunners and navigators did not slack in their duty. With concentrated group fire they succeeded in setting fire to one "Messerschmitt", but its fall no one observed.
The second formation of nine "Bostons" (led by Kapitan Erkin) was attacked simultaneously by two groups of Luftwaffe fighters at the moment of reforming into battle formation for the attack of the target. The first group of German fighters in the composition of 8 Bf 109 and FW 190 approached from the direction of the railroad station at Kramatorsk and attacked the bombers from below and behind. The second group of enemy aircraft of 13 Bf 109 and FW 190 approached from the direction of Kramatorsk airfield and attacked from the left from below.
With the repulsing of the first attack the air gunners "smothered" with concentrated fire two German fighters, which, according to the observation of Starshina Zakhozhiy, Starshiy Serzhant Malakhov and Serzhant Egorov, fell within 3-4 km to the northwest from the Kramatorsk airfield. In the distance the group fire of the air gunners shot down one additional "Focke-Wulf". The fall of the fighter was observed by air gunners Starshina Lyapin and Starshina Glukhin.
In spite of the effective defense of the Soviet bombers,for the Luftwaffe pilots it was possible to set fire almost the entire section of Leytenant Lebedev's.
First caught fire the aircraft of wingman Mladshiy Leytenant Shishkov's. Embraced in flames the "Boston" it cut into the earth and then exploded in the populated area of Aleksandrovka the 3rd, 5 km to the northwest of Kramatorsk. Probably, the pilot was killed or badly wounded. The fall of Kapishnikov's aircraft was observed by Rogin's crew.
Wingman Serzhant Andreev on the badly damaged aircraft with dificulty sufficed to the front line, where finally he fell behind the formation and forced landed close to the populated area of Kolodezi. With the landing the "Boston" burned. In the air battle radio operator-gunner Serzhant Eseev and air gunner Serzhant Torbeev were badly wounded, also Serzhant Andreev - is slightly wounded in the arm. The gunners were immediately directed to the troop hospital at Borovskoe, and Andreev together with the navigator of the crew Starshiy Serzhant Kusher on the 8 May returned to their regiment."

[Nokose]

Sorry, I'm not a good typist but will try to finish. So far he has not mentioned a flak hit.

"Last started to smoke the "Boston" of the leader Leytenant Lebedev. For the pilot it was possible to reach the front line, also, in the Kremennaya region to complete a forced landing. With the landing the aircraft was fired upon by a pair of "Messerschmitts". The "Boston" caught fire, but was extinguished by the Red Army soldiers who ran up. In the air battle was killed air gunner Serzhant Filonov, Lebedev - was wounded in the heel of the left foot, and the crew navigator Mladshiy Leytenant Chernyy received a light wound.
In the prevailing situation the squadron commander Kapitan Erkin gave the command to dive, passing to low-level flight and with the remaining crews has escaped away from the enemy. Thus, the 861 BAp in this departure has found itself short of four full strength crews, one air gunner and 6 "Boston" aircraft, taken into account in the regiment and the division as combat losses."

[Nick Hector]

Rob,

Why don't you just find an alphabetic listing of all Luftwaffe aces, then take my listing (I have sent it to you several times, so I really don't get why you need to keep doing this... In fact, the second tab on my listing IS an alphabetic listing of Luftwaffe aces), type [CTRL+F], enter the name of a pilot that interests you and search for each time his name comes up on my listing.
It is as easy as that...
Yes, my listing does have gaps but so does everyone else's and if you find anyone who has a better one than me, put us in touch...

Nick

[GMichalski]

HI,
i´m trying to complete the top list of my info with the
claims confirmed by enemy of these:

Nº PILOT COUNTRY AIRFORCE CLAIMS RELIABLE/OVERCLAIMER %
----------------------------------------------------------
1-Erich "Bubi" Hartmann Alemania Luftwaffe 352 O (¿ % ?)
2-Gerhard Barkhorn Alemania Luftwaffe 301 R (60%-70%)?
3-Günther Rall Alemania Luftwaffe 275 R (60%-70%)?
4-Otto Kittel Alemania Luftwaffe 267 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)???
5-Walter Nowotny Alemania Luftwaffe 258 O (¿ % ?)
6-Wilhelm Batz Alemania Luftwaffe 237 O (¿ % ?)
7-Erich Rudorffer Alemania Luftwaffe 224 O (¿ % ?)
8-Heinrich Bär Alemania Luftwaffe 220 R (60%-70%)?
9-Hermann Graf Alemania Luftwaffe 212 O (¿ % ?)
10-Heinrich Ehrler Alemania Luftwaffe 208 O (¿ % ?)
11-Theodor Weissenberger Alemania Luftwaffe 208 O (¿ % ?) - ¿¿west claims-> reliable or overclaims??
12-Hans Philipp Alemania Luftwaffe 206 O (¿ % ?)
13-Walter Schuck Alemania Luftwaffe 206 O (¿ % ?)
14-Anton Hafner Alemania Luftwaffe 204 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)???
15-Helmut Lipfert Alemania Luftwaffe 203 +R (60%-70%)?
16-Walter Krupinski Alemania Luftwaffe 197 R (60%-70%)?
17-Anton Hackl Alemania Luftwaffe 192 (+180) R (60%-70%)?
18-Joachim Brendel Alemania Luftwaffe 189 R (60%-70%)?
19-Max Stotz Alemania Luftwaffe 189 R (60%-70%)?
20-Joachim Kirschner Alemania Luftwaffe 188 R-O? (40%-50%-60%-70%)???

O-Overclaimer
R-Reliable

i´m very interesting in the number of claims or % of the claims confirmed by enemy, you have some info about that??....
many thanks
regards