Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses

[Mark R.]

After seeing Andrew Arthy’s excellent comparison of Allied claims against actual FW-190 losses, I decided to undertake a similar exercise for Luftwaffe kills awarded against actual U.S. P-38 losses during the Tunisian campaign. Bottom line up front: German pilots claimed/were awarded 3 kills for every 2 recorded P-38 air-to-air loss – except in February and March 43 when the percentages dipped well below 40 percent. The kills were awarded to Bf-109, FW-190, and Bf-110 pilots. As an exception to the rule, I also matched up the Ju-52 gunner and his victim from April 1943. Otherwise there appears to be no kills awarded to German bomber gunners in the Tony Woods data – although it appears at least three P-38s may have been lost to bomber defensive fire.

NOTE: I removed the original attachment because Laurent found a math error. I fixed the mistake and reposted it along with my reply and thanks! It is the file dated 7 April.

Dates where no losses occurred or claims/kills awarded have been omitted.

Sources for U.S. losses include daily mission reports for the 1st, 14th, and 82d Fighter Groups, and published unit histories, to include ADORIMINI – A History of the 82d Fighter Group in World War II by Steve Blake with John Stanaway; The 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John W. Lambert, and An Escort of P-38s – The 1st Fighter Group in World War II by John D. Mullins. Chris Shores, et al, Fighters Over Tunisia proved useful when seeking a broader perspective on each day’s combat.

[robert]

Hi,

and how about damaged P-38 that made their back to base. I think they could be also regarded as "kill" because they were actually hit in the combat.

Regards

Robert

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Robert, the definition of a victory is "a destroyed aircraft". Claiming a victory when an aircraft was only damaged may be done in good faith, but it is still overclaiming.

The difficulty could be when a damaged aircraft returned to base, only to be scrapped or used for parts weeks or months ago.

Regarding the file by Mark there is a mistake on 3 Dec 1942: German kills are counted twice in the cumulative total. On the other hand Italian claims should be added to German ones on the Axis side.
By counting P-38 losses, IMHO F-4 losses should also be added as German pilots would claim them as P-38. I only know of one such loss anyway, on 28 March 1943, so that will only add 1 to the US losses.

My opinion is that in any air force in any theater, claiming 3 victories for 2 enemy losses is a normal occurence.

[Mark R.]

Laurent,

Thanks for pointing out my math error. I knew I should have checked it again.

I did not count Regia Aeronautica kills only because they were relatively few in number in comparison to the Luftwaffe. Plus, I have less reliable information on Italian aerial victories/losses. I agree on the F-4 additions, but have not obtained the 3d PRG records yet. My analysis/figures will be updated as I obtain new information or have people point out mistakes.

When I look at USAAF claims versus actual Luftwaffe losses, I suspect that their verifiable percentages would be lower, especially in the early phases of the campaign, than the figures presented here.

I have updated the document and hope to attach it to this posting.

Sincerely,

Mark

[mars]

I believe the reliable information on Italian aerial victories/losses in the north Africa would be available in Christopher Shores's soon to be published book

[Martin Gleeson]

Mark,

That is excellent work, and thank you for doing it. I have had a huge interest in the P-38 units engaged in the Tunisian campaign for a long time. I noted your first posts of about a month ago or more but at the time I had a child in hospital and am only lately catching up on various posts now that matters are happily fine again. I hope to respond in greater detail at some point - it may take weeks or even more !

However I cannot resist one question. Do you have the names of the Italian pilots who claimed the P-38s ?

Also I would slightly quibble with the liberal use of F-1, F-15, etc for the P-38 losses listed. Apart from the dire lack of detailed records I would venture that no F-15s or Gs were in N. Africa until the 82nd FG arrived and they came with a mixture of late model Fs and early Gs. This is an entire subject in itself as I expect you will agree !

Keep up the great work.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[88jimmeyer]

Mark,

I would be interested to here what you find out on Laftwaffe claims vs. Italian air force claims. We are still trying to find out who is the true victor of my uncle lost on 14 Jan 1943, Ltn Kurt Buhligen or Ten Ceasare Pinizza? Both Pilots claim a victory in the same area

Jim

[Mark R.]

Martin,

Yes, I ruefully cut and pasted specific model designations on a master excell spread sheet because I could not stand looking just at P-38F. I realize they are not accurate reflections of the specific type of Lightning in some, if not many, instances.

Thanks for your kind remarks. I am doing research for my next book and instead of writing on the ground campaign first, I decided to do the aerial campaign. In the process, I have become a fan of the P-38 groups, mainly because they never seemed to succumb to low morale even though they surely absorbed some lop sided losses on occasion. The P-38s, by virtue of their range and numbers, clearly faced the most daily challenges experienced by USAAF fighters over Tunisia. Schottelkorb's and Ilfrey's accounts make that clear. During my next trip to the archives (in June) I will get the remainder of the 14th and 1st FG reports that I currently lack, as well as the 81st FG, and as many medium and heavy bombardment groups as possible + 3d Photo Recon Group. I have allotted three full days for pulling and copying records.

As a single dad with a nine and eleven year old, I sympathize with your situation last month. I am glad all has been resolved.

As for the Italian P-38 kills, I only have a very few names,gleaned mostly from forums such as this one or secondary sources such as Fighters over Tunisia. The 5 Squadra daily reports to Superaero during this period are very sparse with regard to such detail. I think almost the only one I have is: Tenente Ceseare Panizza from 81 Squadraglia 6 Gruppo 1 Stormo who claimed a 71st FS P-38 on 14 January - one of two lost (Lts Ivan W. Salts and Louis F. Meyer).

With Kind regards,

Mark

[mars]

hi, Mark, you are talking about your "next book", does that means you have already published another book before? If this is the case, would you be kind enough to let me know name of your previous book? Thanks!

[Mark R.]

Yes, I have published Victory at Mortain by University Press of Kansas and several others by the U.S. Center of Military History covering the Iraq War.