Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer

[Chris Goss]

No he is not & there is no need to root for his health as I have already said!

[knusel]

Hmm, that's good. I was worried because your choice of words was difficult for me to translate.
What your personal opinion about Tanzer ?
Michael

[knusel]

Good morning Gentlemen,

will it ever be possible to estimate when Heinz Marquardt scored his kills number #90-98 ?
I mean before or after the transition from Bf109 to Fw190 ?
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/marquardt.html

Cheers,

Michael

[knusel]

...or is it at least possible to estimate if his kill #98 was scored before or after 7Apr1945 ?

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

With regards to Michael's list of published works and there totals for Tanzer, remember what John Foreman said "Once published, it's cast in stone" basically these totals have been so duplicated over the years it's hard to imagine them untrue, but I do feel that is the case. We have not yet established the very first use of these high figures. Seems that Toliver/Constable used it in 1968, but I suspect it goes back further than that.
If I were a betting man(which I'm not), then I would say Hans Ring had something, or a lot to do with it.
Does anybody have Ernst Obermaier's 1966 Ritterkreuz publication?

Let us not forget that Tanzer died in 1960, chances are he was ignorant of the 128/143. Decorations had a habit of equalling themselves out i.e a "cheap" Ritterkreuz might not have been added to despite many later claims, yet still this would be somewhat of a record I think.

So we still need to establish when and by whom the 128/143 was first used. Perhaps in the end it was just a typo error !!!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[focusfocus]

Hello Johannes

I have the book of Obermaier (1966)

"Die genaue Abschusszahl is ungeklärt.Mindestens 128 luftsiege.Nach einer Soldbucheitragung 143,davon 17 West,4 Viermots.

"Seine Westabschüsse müssen während seiner Zeit beim Jafü 6/Ostpreussen erzeilt worden sein."

Best Regards
Michel

[knusel]

Good afternoon dear Johannes,

hope you're doing fine.
Yes it would be very satisfying to see the Tanzer issue being clarified by finding evidence of a correct total of 43.

Good afternoon dear Michel,

thanks for sharing the intesting Soldbucheintrag info.

I'll keep my eyes open and report to you as soon as find anything.

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

So 1966 is the earliest reference we have.....so far. Some kind person did enlighten me to another incarnation of JG51 being Ostpreussen, so Jafü 6/Ostpreussen must surely be associated with/ is JG51. The only claims references I have found for them is on the KBT papers 1945, which list the details with the exception of the pilots names, and in reality they are claimed by regular pilots flying for regular staffeln. There is no reason(in my opinion)for any claims by Tanzer until the end of 1944 not to be on the mikrofilms

Anyway Ernst Obermaier's 1966 work is inferior to the later one, but was the best of it's kind at the time. He just continued collating information over the next twenty and more years, but could not resolve the Tanzer enigma, which he viewed as such. To the point everything after this 1966 publication had plagiarized this work, and I can see why, most of the 1966 publication is correct. Point is that if Obermaier(who was well respected) stated 128, in good faith, then everybody since has duplicated it.

Remember what John Foreman and myself said "For our book to work, you must forget everything before".

So now we know the probable source of fifty years of duplication. So sometime before 1966 Obermaier had some source that led him to state 128......but unclear/uncertain. I assume that Obermaier had contacted many aces over the years, and received copies of many documents. But Tanzer died in 1960, possibly the subject was taboo at the time anyway, perhaps pre unit reunions?

Sometimes for a pilots "100th" kill there was a plaque made, I have never seen for for Tanzer, but also not for many "100" ers, they also become less used towards the end of the war.

It is accepted now that Hans Ring liked to play games with his enormous knowledge, adding made-up data to fact, we assume to see if his information has been used.......perhaps he requested it wasn't used in publications, we just don't really know. I can only guess that this is the original source.

So in my opinion we must now believe that Obermaier was incorrect in this instance, we will be in effect rewriting history. But it would be nice to know where Obermaier got his information?

Keep well

Johannes

[bakerman]

BTW, does anyone know where Tanzer was buried? He was killed 25-6-60 near Palma de Mallorca/Spain in a Luftwaffe Lockheed T-33A "EB+397", his unit was Aufklärungsgeschwader 52, based at this time at Erding Airfield near Munich/Bavaria.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

There are several other "100" ers from before the mikrofilms somewhat below this total. Some can be explained away by unconfirmed claims being included, a good case of this is Geißthardt.

Woidich has been a "Hans Ring" game.

Wachowiak had eighty-nine. I think Obermaier stated that his Mother said 120-130. So based on hearsay. Obermaier correctly states eight-six, then nothing more heard of him until his death. In reality Wachowiak returned to combat later and claimed three additional Russian aircraft.......total eight-nine.

Then there are those who tell tales. I do believe that Walter Dahl used his position in 1945 to just not so much "overclaim", but rather just made up a heap of claims post war. He himself states a total of 133. Therefore if my theory is correct then it's hearsay, or his say. He lists witnesses for his claims, unfortunately they will all be gone now, but I bet if we asked them they would deny ever flying with Dahl.

I have even seen a "doctored" flugbuch, basically claims added in post war, and judging by the handwriting, not by the pilot. There is also an abschüßelist about for a Schlacht pilot with 103 claims, he existed in real life, but the claims he did make in real life(mikrofilms) do not match any of those on the list.

Slowly perhaps we will get to the truth.

Keep Well

Johannes