VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

[yogybär]

Acc. to Priens book, the JG3-claims were at ca. 3:30 in the morning (Berlin time). Does this fit to the time of the attack?

Please, Evgeny, what is the source for your loss information?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Berlin time = Moskow time + 2 hours.

3:30 (BT) = 5:30 (MT, as listed in all info I posted above).

Source of all lists: look 1st post.
"Расколотое небо. Май-июнь 1943", Олег Растренин.
("Broken sky. May-june 1943", by Oleg Rastrenin) ISBN: 9785699221783. 84x108/32, 320 pages. Releice date: 25.06.2007.

Oleg Rastrenin have great authority as specialist of assault aviation (Il-2 aircratft, units, pilots, organisation, operations during WW II). He has several books in russian, and 1 in english.
Il-2 Shturmovik Guards Units of World War 2 (Combat Aircraft) by Oleg Rastrenin
http://www.amazon.com/Shturmovik-Gua...1787481&sr=8-1

[Nokose]

If the VVS was attacking the target at 04:15(Moscow) on the 10Jun43 and II/JG3 made their first claims against the Il-2's at 03:20 it would be Eastern Europe time. Other wise it would be nearly a hour to the target and attack before the first claim could be made at 05:20(Moscow). Certain Luftwaffe units seem to use Berlin and others Eastern Europe in their claims it seems.

[Evgeny Velichko]

About times (to clear the situation):

Time, mentioned in reports (see above with each raid) is :

TIME OVER TARGET. That mean, if Il-2 need to fly to his target for 30 minutes, and tome over target is (for example) 5:00 (3:00 German time), he will take off in 4:30 (2:30) german time. Then it takes (usually) 5-10 minute over target, and he is landing at 5:40 (3:40 German time).
Then:
If group of Il-2's was intercepted BEFORE it reach the target, Luftwaffe may claim victoryes from 4:30 to 5:00 (in german claimlists it will be from 2:30 to 3:00).

Claims over target are around 3:00 (german time).

Claims, when group of Il-2 was going to base will be listed (for example in Tony Woods lists) as from 3:00 to 3:30.

It is just example.

Actually, german fighters could attack 30 minutes BEFORE Il-2 (or A-20, or Pe-2) will come to target, and continue ther attacks during 30-40 minutes (and even longer - even following to landing airfields of Il-2's).

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

This is a very interesting subject.

Have some data on 8 Jun 43 relating to II./JG 3:

Claims:
08.06.43Oblt. Joachim Kirschner5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 266: at 200 m.05.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45008.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 224: at 1.200 m.05.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45108.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 69 223: at 1.000 m.05.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45208.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-3£ 61 213: at 3.000 m.11.12FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51308.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 218: at 3.500 m.11.14FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM08.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3Yak-1£ 62 799: at 4.000 m.11.15FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28408.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3Yak-1£ 61 267: at 2.500 m.11.17FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45308.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 217: at 4.000 m.11.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28508.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 243: at 2.800 m.11.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51408.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 316: at 3.800 m.18.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45408.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 315: at 300 m.18.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM


10 June 43:
10.06.43Ltn. Gerd Schaedle6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 612: at 1.500 m.03.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Il-2£ 61 657: at 200 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3Il-2£ 61 872: at 50 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45610.06.43Ltn. Ernst-Heinz Löhr6./JG 3Il-7£ 61 649: at 100 m.03.23FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 27510.06.43Uffz. Waldemar Eyrich6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 622: at 200 m.03.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 318: at 3.500 m.05.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 437

Best wishes,
Rob

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

Hello Leo,

at least in the Ader's book published in 1977 no Spain losses was included in the loss List of JG51.
What publish Year from your book ?

Best reards

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

Hi Leo,

I do not seen the 1985 version.

Best regards

[yogybär]

Thx for the time of the attack. I knew about the 2hours difference Moscow-berlin. So, it fits. Good!

I have the Adrs/Held book from 1985, it is a pure reprint afaik. No losses mentioned for that day.