Source for color profile of Bf 109 G-10 491300, "White 36", IV/JG 301?

[ChristianK]

Gentlemen,
the title says it all - What is the source for this aircraft, featured on EagleCals decal sheet #156 (http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj627/judyc7/White36-small.jpg)?

In one photo, allegedly taken at Gardelegen in 1945 (see LiF Spezial No.2, p.34) one can even see the rudder of 491300, but not the rest of this plane. Furthermore, the camouflage in the photo differs significantly from the one in the color profile. So what's going on here?

Cheers and thanks in advance,
Christian

[Jim P.]

EagleCals is from Jerry & Judy Crandal, right? If so, you can probably count on it being quite accurate - camouflage colors may be debatable at times, but Jerry has been researching this stuff for many, many years, and, from what I've seen, has sources that would be the envy of 98-99% of us here.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi there ChristianK,

All i know about this machine is the close shot of its tail you mention:
www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/5213743359

it shows obviously a RLM 81/82 mottle which does not match the profile rendition.

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Jim P.

EagleCals is from Jerry & Judy Crandal, right? If so, you can probably count on it being quite accurate - camouflage colors may be debatable at times, but Jerry has been researching this stuff for many, many years, and, from what I've seen, has sources that would be the envy of 98-99% of us here.

Yes Jim ... But

Is the source (photography evidence) published in the said book? We already have some pictures of JG301's planes wearing such markings indeed but, again, what about that particular machine?
Having a partial "White 36" doesn't prove you have the whole machine, including the WNr. ... and the contrary.

Nobody can ask us to kowtow, not to me in particular!..

Cheers, Franck.

[Jim P.]

Franck, all I can say is that I know Jerry personally, and the sources he has would probably blow your mind. He's not one to make stuff up out of whole clothe. If he's behind publishing a set of markings for a decal, he has the source material. His publishing record should bare that out. Again, one might debate aircraft colors, but I know him enough and his work that I trust him as a source.

[ouidjat]

Hi Jim,

Do we have to wait Prien's book about JG 301 to discover the pictures? Or something like that ...

You can imagine too, that any body discovering that only through colour profiles for decals wants - with good reasons - to have the proof of that.

Time for Hartmann green Bf109K-4 published in Ries is over, since long!

Regards, Franck.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Hi Jim,

Do we have to wait Prien's book about JG 301 to discover the pictures? Or something like that ...

You can imagine too, that any body discovering that only through colour profiles for decals wants - with good reasons - to have the proof of that.

Time for Hartmann green Bf109K-4 published in Ries is over, since long!

Regards, Franck.

Well, I will echo Jim's comments about Jerry and the Eagle decals. Jerry has lots of photos that have not been published in an open forum. He is, after all, in business to make a profit. Just because someone has a photo or source for something does not mean he has to show it to you or anyone else in an open forum like this.

I was not aware that Dr. Prien was doing a book about JG 301. Do you have a source for this?

How do you know that Hartmann did not fly a K-4? JG 52 flew lots of K-4s and records of the period are skimpy at best. BTW, IIRC correctly, the Ries book says it was a K-14. He was not the best at ID'ing aircraft. He probably thought Hartmann's Erla G-10 was a K-14.

[ChristianK]

Don't know about Prien's book plans or Hartmann's K-4 - but I want to assist Franck a little bit: Fact is that we HAVE a published photo of the tail of Werknummer 491300 - and this one's got a distinctly different finish than the one in EagleCals color profile, which claims to represent said Werknummer 491300. This means - if someone hasn't switched off all laws of logic: the color profile is wrong, at least in this one aspect. It's as simple as that.

This isn't meant to belittle the other works of Jerry Crandall, but in this case, I am afraid, evidence speaks against him..

[Don Pearson]

It appears that Franck is referring to the Jagdverband series...

Don

[Jerry Crandall]

Hello - We have a photo of "White 36" IV./JG 301. Unfortunately the tail cannot be seen in the photo. It was loaned to us by a prominent Luftwaffe historian. The photo was labeled "White 36" W. Nr. 491300, so we believed that to be true. Since our profile was produced, the photo of the tail of W. Nr. 491300 came to light. As always, this is part of the evolution of knowledge in Luftwaffe research.
Hope this helps, cheers,
Jerry

Originally Posted by ChristianK

Don't know about Prien's book plans or Hartmann's K-4 - but I want to assist Franck a little bit: Fact is that we HAVE a published photo of the tail of Werknummer 491300 - and this one's got a distinctly different finish than the one in EagleCals color profile, which claims to represent said Werknummer 491300. This means - if someone hasn't switched off all laws of logic: the color profile is wrong, at least in this one aspect. It's as simple as that.

This isn't meant to belittle the other works of Jerry Crandall, but in this case, I am afraid, evidence speaks against him..