B17 losses 2 march 1945

[wise62]

hi Alls

Many thanks for answers.
Date of the crash is given by the death of a young woman who has been hurt by falling parts of the plane. His death has been recorded the 2 march 1945 around 15h00 (local time) by the local town administration.
I join pictures of the engine which has been refound

Wise62

[RSwank]

Hmmm, the engine looks pretty broken up. I would guess the part labeled Boeing was part of the supporting strut for the engine. The starter is at the back of the engine but the serial number shown on that data plate will not be of much help. The serial number for the engine would have been on the lower front of the engine, below the propeller hub. The second picture shows some gears which may have been part of the hub but I can't say for sure.


As you say, the March 2nd date at 1500 is when the woman died. If she died immediately then what would be the date and time of the crash, however if she lived for some time after the crash, then it is possible?? the crash occurred on a different day. Are there town records which say the crash and death occurred at the same date and time?

[wise62]

unfortunatly no plate with the engine number has been found until now. the engine has been removed without caution by road workers and this plate must now be a few meters underground... The remaining parts of the engine are rather in bad conditions.
only the starter maker plate and the part marked boeing are readable.

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by vathra

Horst,

one question regarding losses where no MACR was made.
I have found some 30 cases of B-17 and B-24 that fell in Yugoslavia, and MACR was not made since all crew was quickly evacuated through allied missions. Since it was behind enemy lines, Escapa statements was made.

In that case, was there any document made that contains serial numbers of engine, MG and plane?

I really don't know, since I haven't seen one yet. But you surely find this data in lists for the technical/maintenance branches of the units prior each mission.
For the engines, you need the a/c AAF s/n and the installed engine-s/n to track down by the flying hours the engine's next inspection. Perhaps, something like that existed for the MG, too.

But these are files, you may not find, if they still exist, in public archives. Here, I think you must go down to the unit's technical files of the individual a/c.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

[Tony Kambic]

In the forefront of image #2 is the engine mount.

Tony

[wise62]

two more photos
From witnesses and local history: The young woman was found dead in the burned house the day of the crash.
Research continues here in St Inglevert...

Wise62

[RSwank]

Wise62,

I have come up with a "possible" explanation for this incident and even a "possible"? plane.

On 2 March 1945 plane 43-38864 from the 398th BG and flown by Winsor O Coleman was hit by fighters over the target (Bohlen). According to the link given below, they made it all the way back to friendly territory where the crew bailed out. There is no MACR for this loss.

All of the crew were returned to base (although some were wounded) and they continued to fly missions. I don't know where the plane actually came down (or blew up in the air).

Perhaps someone has more information on this loss or other similar losses that day. Something like this would explain why there was no MACR (no crew were actually lost) and yet there was apparently a crash of a B-17.

The mission flown that day was over 10 hours long, so they may have been returning over France around 1500 hours.


Search for Coleman on this page for a brief mention:
http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/201...l-mission.html

There is some confusing info on the web with regards to the plane, such as here:
http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/12869

(I think perhaps Osborn and Baugher have the dates wrong i.e., MIA should be 2/3/45 not 2/5/45 and the salvage (write off) date perhaps should have been 3/3/45 not 3/5/45, (although that salvage date does show up below)


If you search for 43-38864 on this page, you see it was lost on 2 March 45.

http://www.398th.org/History/398th_A...BySquadron.pdf

[wise62]

RSwank

I think that you have solved the mystery of this B17.
About the dead aircrew found dead , chute unopened, the witness, very old (90) certainly confuses with the waist gunner of 42-37818, Ph. Marizzaldi, crashed also close to St Inglevert and who have been buried in Marquise (see document recorded in Marquise ) the 21/01/1944.
Many thanks for your very effective help.

Wise62

[RSwank]

Wise62,

If you want to try to followup on this, you can probably contact the 398th BG at their website. www.398th.org

There is a photo of the Coleman crew, taken after this incident (so some crew members from the 2 March incident are not in the photo).

http://www.398th.org/Images/Images_C..._19450321.html

Three men who were on that flight that day received medals.

http://www.398th.org/Awards/DFC/DFC_...Cs_450529.html



You might try to contact Don Christensen (the son), author of the story about his father in which the Coleman crew is mentioned. He may have a little more info about the Coleman incident.
http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/

Note that 43-38864 was a "Boeing" built B-17, so it would have had Boeing marked engine support struts.


I will start a thread over on the armyairforces.com forum, maybe we can get some more information.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/threa...eman-crew.456/

[wise62]

Thanks for all theses informations and specialy for Coleman's crew photo.
I hope that you will have other one's with the armyairforce forum