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  #1  
Old 6th August 2012, 09:44
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Hi Guys

There is some confusion as to who shot down Joachim Kirschner on 17th December 1943, which led to his death by partisans.

Seems he was attacked out of the sun, which would imply the enemy were above him. Jg27 made no claims this day(and no Thunderbolts were lost), and the first Thunderbolts they claimed were a month later, so he may have mistaken them for Spitfires and tried to out-dive them, which you just coundn't do. However as the American's usually tried to shoot the Luftwaffe pilots in their parachutes that makes it sound like Spitfires.

Can anbody please tell me which Allied pilots made claims this day in the region of Yugoslavia, and what were they flying.

Grateful for any assistance.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #2  
Old 6th August 2012, 11:39
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Hi Johannes,

Previous threads on this claim 57th FG were the victors search under '57th FG' and 'Joachim Kirschner' and you should find these Ok,

Regards

Brian Bines

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...hlight=57th+FG

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...chim+Kirschner
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  #3  
Old 9th August 2012, 08:33
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Thanks Guys

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 9th August 2012, 11:57
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
As the American's usually tried to shoot the Luftwaffe pilots in their parachutes that makes it sound like Spitfires.
Actually far more German pilots survived bailing out after being shot down by US fighters than those that were killed under their chutes, so surviving a bail out is no proof of the identity of the victor. And I would not say it was an usual practice.
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Old 9th August 2012, 15:44
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

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Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti View Post
Actually far more German pilots survived bailing out after being shot down by US fighters than those that were killed under their chutes, so surviving a bail out is no proof of the identity of the victor. And I would not say it was an usual practice.
Thanks for the clarification, Laurent R. The moderators are supposed to keep their eyes open for nationalistic slurs, especially false ones, but it appears they missed this one. Sadly, many Europeans also believe American fighter and fighter-bomber pilots flying down on the deck went out of their way to intentionally strafe bicyclists, school children, mothers pushing infants in prams, schools, hospitals, etc. Some of this certainly happened, but it was not wide-spread. As we both know, for every German report of a Luftwaffe aircrew member being machine gunned in his 'chute, there is a corresponding Allied report of baled-out aircrew being shot, pitch-forked or beaten to death on the ground by both German military and civilians.

We have been through this time and again here, but each time it happens it needs to be challenged.
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Old 10th August 2012, 07:58
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Sorry, that wasn't a Nationalistic slur, but an observation that a pilot in his parachute is far more likely to have been killed by American forces than British. As Göring told his pilots to kill British airman in chutes in 1940 I wonder if it was true for American pilots, I have seen it writen about jet pilots, but guess thats no proof, and I wonder where the statement came from?

Regards

Johannes
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Old 10th August 2012, 15:37
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Hi Johannes,

This book, written by a highly respected professor who teaches in German, American and possibly British universities, is a study of Allied war crimes as investigated by the German military authorities:

de Zayas, Alfred M. The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945. Lincoln: Univ. of Nebraska Press, 1989. ISBN: 0-8032-9908-7. Pb. 364p. Illus. Notes. Bibliography. Index.

The British and other Commonwealth pilots do not get off Scot-free, according to this work. They intentionally shot down Ju 52 ambulance aircraft in the Mediterranean that were clearly marked with the red cross and they intentionally machine gunned German ambulances on the roads in Italy, these also clearly marked with a red cross on their roof. This was probably the work of individuals rather than policy and the book presents the evidence.

The closest I have been able to come to the "pilots in their 'chutes" controversary is that American pilots in several fighter groups were verbally encouraged to "finish off" German fighter pilots once they had baled out. There were no written orders, it did not happen in every fighter group, and the "encouragement" was provided by briefing officers at pre-mission briefings. This allegedly began sometime during the summer of 1944 and is usually described as an overzealous attempt by a few individual briefing officers to bring an end to the war more quickly in the belief that a dead and experienced enemy fighter pilot could not be replaced. Only a relatively small number of these American pilots did this. The vast majority thought it to be bad form and ignored these unwritten instructions. This comes from 12 years of reading numerous discussions on this subject on various web sites. No one has yet produced a piece of paper showing this to have been a written order or even USAAF policy. But there definitely were cases of it.

Larry

Last edited by Larry deZeng; 10th August 2012 at 16:46.
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Old 10th August 2012, 16:22
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Following on from what Larry said a few years ago a 8th AF ace was asked on a TV programme about shooting of pilots on parachutes and he replied that there was no order to do so. However briefing officers in his Group did say every German pilot who baled out and got into another fighter had the potential to kill ten American bomber boys next mission. In this case no order but a strong suggestion to fire on a chute to protect the bomber crews. As regards the point about firing on jet pilots from nealy 60 Me262 pilots who baled out at least ten died as a result of chute failure or jumping too low, one was fired at on the ground following a crash landing but was not hit, five were reported killed on their chutes, one wounded on his chute and three claimed to have been fired at while descending. Of the five who died one died of blood loss following being hit which could have been caused in the cockpit but people on the ground reported he was fired on, a second was found dead with bullet wounds but some reports say his chute did not fully develope. I believe Galland had a fear of being fired on if jumping from a 262, as some allied pilots thought all 262s were flown only by aces.
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Old 12th August 2012, 09:07
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

Hi

I do recall A German pilot who claimed to Allied aircraft over Africa, but they were refused confirmation because they were thought to be red cross aircraft! Guess there is no law against shooting pilots in there parachutes either. But if I was trying to find out who shot down a particular pilot over Northern Europe, and it was found he was shot in his shoot I would think American fighters. I read somewhere that Maltese fishermen would drown Italian pilots they found in the sea, so the British would paint a white Maltese cross on there life vests to avoid the same fate!.....war sure is mean.

Regards

Johannes
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  #10  
Old 12th August 2012, 11:36
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Joachim Kirschner's death Spitfires or Thunderbolts

IIRC Chuck Yeager in his autobiography discusses "policy" of shooting up civilian targets as comming from above -whether officially (on paper) or unofficially I don't remember. From his description, it was pretty widespread and an effort to demoralize the Germans and shorten the war. Terrible, but that is total war.
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