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  #1  
Old 14th February 2020, 14:52
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Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I just worked through the Me 210 part of Robert Forsyth's "Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units". It's a fascinating story of extreme teething troubles of a planes that had much more vices than qualities. Maybe it has also some philosophical dimension: if you want to develop an aircraft that can do everything, you'll end up with an aircraft that can do nothing.
Some kills scored in the Me 210 are mentioned:
  • 1.3.1943 Rudolf Dassow (probable) p44
  • 31.3.1943 Walter Lardy p42
  • 9.4.1943 Rudolf Dassow p44
  • 13.4.1943 Friedrich Stehle p44
  • 5.4.1944 Deszsó Zsámboki p48
Are any further Me 210 kills known by name ?

Michael
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Old 14th February 2020, 15:40
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Knusel,
The correct name is Zsámboki Dezső (RHAF)

Others:

15 AAF, 49 BW, 461 BG, 766 BS, B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52366, '49', "Spirit of Hollywood/Gloria Jean", downed by RHAF RKI-flight, Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+54' (Gy.sz.: 210.108.054) with Dóczy Lóránd alez. (Lt.Col.) pilot, Stark Elek őrm. (Sgt.) radioman-gunner on April 13, 1944 at Délegyháza (railway station), Hungary.


15 AAF, 49 BW, 461 BG, 764 BS, B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52409, '16', "Hell's A Poppin", downed by RHAF RKI-flight, Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+58' (Gy.sz.: 210.116.058) with Konráth János fhdgy. (1Lt.) pilot, Újváry László zls. (Ens.) radioman-gunner on April 13, 1944 at Kelebia, Hungary.

Soviet 8 VA(?) IL-2m3, downed by RHAF Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.1+07' (Gy.sz.: 210.215.107) with Kovács József szkv. pilot and Villám Mihály tiz. radioman-gunner at Ungvar, on October 7, 1944.

Soviet 5 VA La-5, downed by RHAF 102/2. Sq. Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.1+??' (Gy.sz.: 210.xxx.1xx) with Nagy Dezső fhdgy. (1Lt.) pilot and Csorba Ferenc szkv. radioman-gunner at Szarvas, Hungary, on October 20, 1944.

etc... Hope this helps.

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 14th February 2020 at 18:45. Reason: W.Nr.s (Gy.sz.) added
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Old 14th February 2020, 23:50
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

I would like to know where Robert got the data for claims of Dassow and Stehle....does anybody know?
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Old 15th February 2020, 13:27
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+54' (Gy.sz.: 210.108.054) with Dóczy Lóránd alez. (Lt.Col.) pilot and Stark Elek őrm. (Sgt.) radioman-gunner also got credited a P-38 on April 13, 1944 at Szolgaegyháza (Szabadegyháza), Hungary, while the 15 AAF lost no P-38s this day. (It had to be a damaged plane only.)

RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+31' (Gy.sz.: 210.073.031) with Pozsgay Antal hdgy. (Lt.) pilot and Szukits Imre (Sgt.) radioman-gunner got credited a P-38 on April 13, 1944 at Kiskunlacháza-NW, Hungary, while the 15 AAF lost no P-38s this day. (It had to be a damaged plane only.)

15 AAF, 82 FG, 95 FS, P-38G-10-LO, S/N: 42-13030 crashed near Vincenzo in Italy this day (Robert L. Joley killed). Not sure if it was fatally damaged on the Budapest mission by the prev. Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 destroyers and crashed at home, or it was just simply a fatal training accident.

RHAF RKI-flight Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+14' (Gy.sz.: 210.034.014) with Béles Tibor hdgy. (Lt.) pilot and Pajor József (Sgt.) radioman-gunner got credited a B-24 at Katymár-S, Hungary on April 13, 1944. This crashed plane was 15 AAF, 304 BW, 454 BG, 738 BS, B-24H-10-FO, S/N: 42-52248, "Stand By", however, chances are that it was downed by Me 110G of 5./ZG.1 (Oblt. Romain).

5/1. éjszakai vadászszázad (5/1. "Owl" NFS) Me 210Ca-1, 'Z.0+??' (Gy.sz.: 210.???.0??) with Zsámboki Dezső őrm. (Sgt.) pilot and Sallós Gábor (Géza?) őrv. radioman-gunner got credited a B-24 at Gara-W, on April 13, 1944. But: since they were killed at Paks still on April 3, 1944, they could not score anything on April 13th. Not to mention, that on April 13, 1944 a B-17 (B-17F-105-BO, S/N: 42-30436) and NOT a B-24 crashed at Gara-W! Here the records were obviously messed up. The solution could be that they mutually shot each other down with 15 AAF, 304 BW, 459 BG, 758 BS B-24H-15-FO, S/N: 42-52322, "Hellzapoppin", which also crashed near Paks on April 3, 1944, at Kajdacs-N, and this B-24 was credited to them later on the 13th at Gara. (Wrong date, wrong type)

(RKI-flight = (Hungarian) Air Experimental Institute, Destroyer Squadron - Ferihegy airport, Budapest)

Gabor
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Old 15th February 2020, 19:17
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Good evening Gabor,

thanks for the many Hungarian Me 210 scorers.
On page 50 Robert Forsyth mentions that 102. Gyorsbombázo osztály accounted for approximately 25 Soviet aircarft shot down. I wonder if the Me 210 top scorer is a Hungarian...

Good evening John,

the 9.4.43 kill of Dassow is well known but the Dassow probable on 1.3.43 and the Stehle kill on 13.4.43 were new to me, too.

Cheers,

Michael
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Old 15th February 2020, 20:55
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

And what was claimed then? Is there more information in the book?
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Old 16th February 2020, 00:07
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

It is entirely possible that most Me 210 victories were claimed by Hungarian crews. On October 20, 1944 Nagy Dezső fhdgy. pilot and Csorba Ferenc szkv. gunner (102/2. Sq.) destroyed a La-5 at Szarvas, Hungary. This time multiple attacks hammered the soviet airfield at Szarvas, where La-5FN (S/N: 39212966, white '66') of 5 VA, 92 IAP was destroyed. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Ivan Sergeevich Bemov was injured. The reported 8 Ju 88s were in fact Hungarian Me 210Ca-1 fast-bombers. (No daytime Ju 88s operated in the area.)

On October 23, 1944 Bárdossy Vilmos hdgy. pilot and Bilau József szkv. gunner claimed a La-5 at Túrkeve, Hungary. This time La-5F (S/N: 39215288) of 5 VA, 486 IAP was lost at Orosháza, Hungary. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexandr Durakov lost engine and belly landed unhurt. Due to the distance, these were probably two different events.

On November 4, 1944 the Kalmár Oszkár őrm. - Gazsi István tiz. and the Szentpéteri György hdgy. - Kotulán Péter szkv. crews (both from 102/1. Sq.) claimed 1-1 Yak-3 over Sári, Hungary. Found no such permanent losses in the soviet 5 VA records.

On November 13, 1944 Orbán József zls. pilot and Vörös Tibor tiz. gunner (102/2. Sq.) claimed a Yak at Nagyszénás, Orosháza-N. This day the 5 VA lost 2 Yak-9M, 2 Yak-1B and 1 Yak-9D permanently.

On November 23, 1944 Hungarian Me 210 crews claimed 2 Yak-3 and 2 La-5.
All these claims require more investigation regarding reported distance, circumstances, etc. Observing combat results from an Me 210 was not easy, that's why the relative high number of potential overclaims.

Gabor
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Old 16th February 2020, 15:29
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Hello John,

Dassow claimed a B24 (probable) in March 43 and a Spitfire in April. Stehle claimed a P38 in April.

Hello Gabor,

yes, you may be right. Have you come across a Hungarian pilot with two or more Me 210 kills ?

Have a nice Sunday,

Michael
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Old 16th February 2020, 15:41
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Perhaps lt.col. Doczy....
Gabor
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Old 16th February 2020, 19:10
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Knusel, Thanks! I still would like to know Robert Forsyth sources..... I have the B-24 of Dassow on 2.3.1943. Confirmed by war diary of Oblt. Paris.

Last edited by John Manrho; 16th February 2020 at 23:24. Reason: Editing
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