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  #1  
Old 8th February 2020, 21:28
Mikael Olrog's Avatar
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RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Hello,

Would anyone know which crew / unit shot down the Do 17 Kauz lost on 3/4 february 1941 east of lowestoft?

Apparently it should have been a Handley Page Hampden from 5 Group. I don't think it was a crew from 48 or 104 Sqn. Foreman writes that the Hampden crew reported the aircraft as a Bf 110 so it seems like the incident has been captured in reports.

I'm looking for Sqn and names so that I can check the relevant ORB for additional details.

Best regards
/Mike
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Old 9th February 2020, 00:43
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Interesting one, the only operational Hampden squadron that night was 44 Sqn but they were gardening in Brest and Lorient.

No mention of combat in ORB

Martin
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Old 9th February 2020, 03:15
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Mike,

Could you please clarify a few points for me?

1/ The unit of the Do 17Z Kauz lost on 3/4 February, 1941?
2/ Why mention 48 and 104 Sqn's - 48 was a Coastal Command Anson squadron, 104 Squadron had merged with 108 Sqn in April 1940 to form 13 OTU, and not reforming until April 1941?
3/ You mention that "Foreman writes that the Hampden crew ...". Where does Foreman write that?

Not being critical, just like to have a look at the sources.

Col.
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Old 9th February 2020, 09:29
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

sure:
1) 2./NJG 2
2+3) I got the following reply at the RAFcommands forum: "John Foreman´s book 1941 Part 1 has the following details but for the night 4/5th February. "Bomber Command sent 106 Aircraft to raid airfields and Cannel ports, thirty more attacking Dusseldorf and four laying mines.
On the outward journey a Hampden, some 30 miles out from Lowestoft, was intercepted by a fighter identified as a Bf110. The fighter opened fire and the Hampden rear gunner replied. The intruder vanished into cloud and suddenly a cloud of fire was seen dropping away. This was without doubt Oberleutnant Otto-Heinrich Häuser´s Do17Z-10of 2./NJG 2, which vanished into the North Sea this night."

The Squadron which made the claim is not mentioned but at least 49 and 106 Squadron operated with Hampdens this night." (Mea culpa regarding Sqn 48/104 - should have been 49/106)



So I'm trying to chase the original sources that Foreman allegedly refer to. I don't have that book myself.



/Mike
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Old 9th February 2020, 10:40
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

It is not just Foreman that lists this.

Theo Boiten in NJCA Early Years Vol 1 lists the loss to a Hampden on 3/4.02.41

Heinz Rökker in Chronik I Gruppe NJG2 lists the loss to a Hampden on 05.02.41 in the main text (p22) and on 04.02.41 in the summary of losses (p213). Therefore I assume on the night of 4/5.02.41

Harry Moyle in The Hampden File lists a Do17Z-10 shot down by a Hampden at 18:37 hrs on 04.02.41 but does not say which Hampden or unit

On that night 49, 50 and 83 Sqn Hampdens went to Düsseldorf and 106 Sqn went Gardening off W France

Of the two nights the 4/5 is more likely to have a Hampden over the North Sea (operationally) but none of the ORBs mention a claim

My guess then is that the Hampden link is from a Group or Command level document

Martin
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Old 9th February 2020, 11:24
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
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Exclamation Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Hello ,

4/02/1941
7./KG 2
Cowthick Lodge, Weldon
Target Derby
Defiant, 151.Sq
Do 17 Z-3
Wnr 2907
U5+AR 100
Fw. Bahr, Horst KIA pilot
Oblt. Krisch, Hubert KIA observer
Uffz. Kliem, Helmut [KIA radio
(Fw. Uehlemann, Heinz KIA engineer

Regards
Alain57
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Old 9th February 2020, 12:14
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Thanks Martin and Alain57.

The German loss details I have from WASt/DD/BA:
1941-02-04, 2./NJG 2, Do 17 Z-10, 50 km östlich Lowestoft, 34 km südöstlich Norwich
Flugzeugführer Olt Häuser, Otto, +
Bordfunker Fw Palm, Gerhard, +
Bordmechaniker Fw Quade, Johannes, +
Vom Feindflug nicht zurückgekehrt
So the KG 2 aircraft Alain57 mentions must be a different loss.

My experience of working with RAF archival material is rather limted so I really appreciate any help or leads to track down the RAF counterpart for this encounter. Since a victory was achieved I would assume that it would have been documented in various ways, at least if the crew were aware of the outcome.
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Old 9th February 2020, 16:24
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.

Col.
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Old 9th February 2020, 17:10
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

If it was a victory not an accident. John Foreman's books were written some time ago and now have a few errors
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Old 9th February 2020, 18:46
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: RAF crew that shot down German night fighter on 3/4 february 1941

I know this forum repeatedly has doubts about Foreman but I think this cannot be put down to him this time

Rökker was published in 1997 and Moyle in 1989, both saying the same thing

Martin
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