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Old 30th December 2019, 01:21
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Folks,

Thank you. Special thanks to those, who pointed out the possibility of misidentification of reported claims. I checked the ‘other’ fighter losses of the 5 VA on the days of Hartmann’s claims between October 27 – December 9, 1944. After checking the details found, that Hartmann’s 306. claim: ‘Yak-7’ at 15:30 local, at 98 799 is almost a perfect match to 177 GvIAP La-5F (No.39215187, '87') lost at 15:25 in the same, Kerekegyháza-N area, being downed by a Bf 109! This brings up Hartmann’s victory list to 8 out of his 28 claims in the given time period. This is 28.6% accuracy, but still within the predicted 25-30% range. Applying this average to his 352 claims, this means about 100.7 victories, so he just can stay in the ‘Club 100’ ;-)))))

The two lists of soviet 5 VA fighter losses in this thread therefore list ALL permanent soviet fighter-losses to German AND Hungarian fighters, potential (soviet) friendly fire, flak and accident victims:


305: - STILL OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m

October 27, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39213433, '33') at 13:55 local, at 300 m, pair of recce. La-5s in the Kecskemét area. 1Lt. Sergei Fedorovich Gukov was hit by flak, belly landed at Kecskemét-NW, 8 km near a lake at Méntelek. Captured, later liberated.

306: - VICTORY! 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799 – it was La-5F (S/N: 39215187) around 15:25 local, in the same area!

October 31, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5F (S/N: 39215187, '87') Lost in the Kecskemét-Kerekegyháza area, Gv.Capt. Pavel Yakovlevich Morduhovich was MIA. At 15:25 local, pair of Gv.Capt. Morduhovich - Gv.Lt. Abramov was patrolling in the Kerekegyháza-N area. At 2000 m combat with 2 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109. Morduhovich attacked the Fw 190s, when the Bf 109 pair got in his tail. His wingman, Gv.Lt. Abramov broke away and has not seen or heard his leader in the radio anymore.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 41210105 – metal wing!) free hunting and recce. mission in the Cegléd-Szolnok-Jászapáti area. Lost near Cegléd, Gv.Lt. Alexei Alexandrovich Kunshin was MIA. At 09:25 La-5s of 177 GvIAP were strafing a truck convoy on the road between Szolnok-Cegléd. After the attack Kunshin was missing. Most likely downed by flak, or brought down by the explosion of one of the attacked trucks.

307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

November 1, 1944:
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 08175) Lost at Lakitelek-NW, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Semenovich Andrianov, bailed out, badly wounded, POW. 8 Yaks, led by Zuev vs. 8 Bf 109 at 4500-6000 m in the Nagykőrös area. Attack on the leading pair.
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D (S/N: 18166046) – NOT A LOSS, only damaged in a dogfight, repaired on its airfield!!!

307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

November 7, 1944:
5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211227, '27') Lost at 15:00 local at Szarvas-SE from a group of 4 La-5, 2 IL-2 from 800 m. Sq. commander, Capt. Mihail Afanasevich Kazanovskii bailed out, his La-5FN went down in flames.

308: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m


November 13, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN, 3rd Sq. (S/N: 41210201 – metal wing!) lost at Újszász in a sharp, turning dogfight with Heinz Ewald near the frontline at low, deadly altitude. Heroic soviet pilot, Gv.Lt. Boris Georgievich Kalinin (1922-1944), who alone accepted the turning duel from his flight of four La-5 with Heinz Ewald, was KIA. Burning crash seen on the swampy shore of the Tisza river. Radial engine (S/N: 8212559) recovered in September, 2007, restored, now on display in our Szolnok Aircraft Museum.

312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m


November 14, 1944:
Nothing.

314: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: 16.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m


November 16, 1944:
5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, 1st Sq., La-5FN (S/N: 39212952, ‘52’) Crashed in a dogfight with Bf 109 fighters at Besenyszög-E, 3 km. Gv.1Lt. Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov (famous fighter ace, Hero of Soviet Union) was KIA. 09:45-10:35 local, 5 (3+2) La-5, led by famous fighter ace, 2 x HSU, Gv.Capt. Kirill Alexeevich Evstigneev (3, La-5FN, ‘14’) and Gv.1Lt. Petr Romanovich Setinin (2) in the Jászberény-Pusztamonostor-Jászárokszállás area. Combat with 12 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190. Over Pusztamonostor another 5(6) Bf 109 attacked and hit Zhigulenkov, who crashed at Besenyszög-E, 3 km.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F (S/N: 39214932, '32') Lost at Nagykáta at 14:00 local. 4 La-5, covering 9 IL-2 of 5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP in the Hatvan-Hort-Atkár-Csány area. Combat with 6 ‘Fw 190’ at Nagykáta-NE, 2-3 km at 2400 m. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Mihailovich Olnev was hit, injured, bailed out at 2000 m. On November 20, 1944 he returned to his unit without his plane. This day -according to their diary- the 188 GvSAP IL-2s in 40 missions dropped 26 FAB-100, 25 FAB-50, 56 AO-25, 1838 AO-2.5, 1084 PTAB (anti-tank) bombs, fired 89 RS-82 wing rockets, 4690 (23 mm) cannon-rounds, 7760 SKAS machine gun-rounds.

328: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: -STILL OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m


December 5, 1944:
5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3015336, '36') At 15:05 local at 2000 m, 4 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Heréd area met 4 Bf 109. Received hit in the hydraulics system and belly-landed in the Pusztamonostor area. Plane broken, pilot, Lt. Georgii Alexandrovich Ulanov was slightly injured. The soviets gave air support to Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Fedorovich Loza’s 46 Guards Tank-Brigade, that was fighting in the Heréd-(Nagy)Kökényes area. This was the very first tank-battle, in which the new, 76 mm M4A2(76)W ’Shermans’ tasted battle and immediately suffered huge losses (eg. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Fedorovich Zhilin, Gv.Lt. Fedor Ivanovich Dankin, tank-commanders' Shermans, etc.) - in soviet service. The Emchas had not much chance, as the Germans fired from covers, and pushed them in a swampy area, where many sank, and became like 'sitting ducks':

2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080561, turret: ’4 7
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080791, turret: ’4 5
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3056452, turret: ’4 21
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(75)D ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080322, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080787, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080813, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080847, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080858, turret: ’4 ??'
2nd UF, 9 GvMK, 46 GvTBr: M4A2(76)W ’Sherman’, chassis no.: U.S.A. 3080908, turret: ’4 ??'

(Previously the soviet Shermans were older, 75 mm models.)


5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1615383, '83') At 10:12 local, at 1500 m, 6 Yaks covering 10 IL-2 in the Erdőtarcsa area met 8 Bf 109. 4 Bf 109 turned agaisnt the Yaks, 4 against the ILs. Ml.Lt. Mihail Semenovich Yerko went missing.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1529219, '15') Lost over Ercsi, Jewish Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich, commander of 151 GvIAP was KIA. At 14:00 local, 8 Yaks (4 Yak-3, 4 Yak-1B), led by Gv.Maj. Ravikovich took off from Kecskemét to cover the Danube river crossings of soviet ground forces in the Ercsi area, south of Budapest. Large groups of enemy planes tried to attack and stop the crossing: Bf 109s, Fw 190s, then (~Rudel’s 10.(Pz)/SG.2) Ju 87G-2 Stukas, covered by Bf 109s, Fw 190s. Yak-3s of Gv.Maj. Yezro Markovich Ravikovich and Gv.St.Lt. Dmitrii Alexeevich Menshikov rolled over, and jumped on the first pair of the Fw 190s, then started to chase a Ju 87G-pair, downing one from each. Ravikovich went to 400-500 m, his wingman, Menshikov to 200 m and lost Ravikovich from his sight. This time they were attacking the Ju 87s. The other 6 Yaks were still busy fighting the enemy fighters South of Ercsi. It is believed, that Ravikovich was hit (either killed, or seriously wounded) in the return fire of the (~SG.2) Stukas. Total claims: 3 Fw 190, 2 Ju 87G, 1 Hs 129 (~14.(Pz)/SG.9). (Lt.Col. Borovoy, Maj. Gavrilin, Gv.Ml.Lt. Lyashin – ’Sword group’.)

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 20153) Lost near Szirák. At 11:00 local, 8 Yak-1, Yak-9, escorting 12 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Erdőtarcsa area. Over the target at 1500 m combat with 8 Bf 109. Ml.Lt. Ivan Arhipovich Guryev went missing. The IL-2s suffered no losses.

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39211776, '76') Downed by flak, Ml.Lt. Nikolai Lukyanovich Vereshak was unhurt. (His next La-5FN was No.41210115 – metal wing!)

330: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: -STILL OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m


December 9, 1944:
Nothing.

That’s all. Certainly I did not go that far to think that Hartmann could not see the difference between a twin-engine Boston, a two-seater IL-2, or a small, single engine La-5.

Conclusion: In the given time period, Hartmann had 8 potential victories out of his 28 claims, which represents about 28-29% accuracy. If this is a representative average of his flying career, Erich Hartmann had about 100 real victories during WWII.

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 31st December 2019 at 02:54.
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