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  #1  
Old 5th October 2017, 18:43
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19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

Hello

1)
Who received the credit of both spits of 234°Sqd shot down that day(P7922 and P7987?

Werner Machold the two?
Rudolf Taschner and Kaspar Amhausend,one each?

2)
I have 26 claims for Machold (the last on 30/09/40:24.25.26.)
Someone has the 6 missing?....Prien and cie no!

3)
Balthasar received credit of a blenheim (Isle of Wight,20.20h)
It seems that no one was lost,outside of Blenheims,is't another Twin Engine?

Thanks in advance

Michel
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Old 6th October 2017, 16:26
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Re: 19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

In reply, from my next book which mentions Machold:

Some sources state that he had an additional six air combat victories in 1941 namely a Spitfire on 16 April 1941, two Spitfires on 29 April 1941, two Spitfires on 19 May 41 and one more on an unidentified date but he confirmed during interrogation that he had shot down 26 aircraft.


There were claims by III./JG 2 but no names. There is no record of whether the 3 who were shot down from I./JG 2 (of which just 2 are named) made any claims. There were no Fighter, Bomber or Coastal Command twin-engined losses unless it was one of those Special Duties aircraft (PM Larry Hayward who has done a bit of research into this unit)
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:31
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Re: 19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

Really interesting to learn (at least for me),that Machold credited himself as 26 "abschuss":so I can't esplain why in the last 70 years,It is credited with 32,especially since "the six missing"seem to correspond more to speculation than to reality...all the more so that for the moment(?),for some,I don't find any losses of the RAF that can corroborate these.

Blenheim credited to Balthasar,should therefore not be counted:....at least according to information to date?.

Michel
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Old 7th October 2017, 12:13
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: 19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

Hi Guys

Seems Machold made quite a few unconfirmed claims, don't know why this is the case. My co-Author John Foreman by memory stated that British Intelligence had a low opinion of him. I don't think this is bias against the enemy as the same people had a very high opinion of Rolf-Peter Pingel.
As we know JG 2 has not the best record for honest claims, but if your Rottenflieger is in on it.......which he would have to be, then they would always be confirmed. I would suggest that either he made a habit of losing his wingmen, or was making the claim that he was alone. Sorry, but don't know about his honesty.

His claims are:-

14th May 1940 MS 406 South of Bouvillon 2000 hrs Nr.1
14th May 1940 MS 406 Clavy area 2005 hrs u/c
19th May 1940 Hurricane Cambrai area 1250 hrs Nr.2
20th May 1940 Blenheim Perrone area 1835 hrs Nr.3
20th May 1940 Blenheim Perrone area 1835 hrs Nr.4
21st May 1940 MS 406 Compirgne area 1910 hrs Nr.5
21st May 1940 MS 406 Compirgne area 1910 hrs Nr.6
26th May 1940 Spitfire Calais area 1700 hrs Nr.7
3rd June 1940 Bloch 150 South of Reims 1445 hrs Nr.8
3rd June 1940 Bloch 150 South of Reims 1450 hrs u/c
11th August 1940 Curtiss Portland area 1155 hrs Nr.9
13th August 1940 Spitfire Brighton 0750 hrs 5600 metres Nr.10
26th August 1940 Spitfire Portsmouth area 1730 hrs Nr.11
30th August 1940 Hurricane London area 1240 hrs Nr.12
30th August 1940 Hurricane Goudhurst area 1800 hrs Nr.13
30th August 1940 Spitfire Goudhurst area 1805 hrs Nr.14
31st August 1940 Hurricane Lydd area 1415 hrs Nr.15
2nd September 1940 Spitfire New Romney area 1425 hrs Nr.16
2nd September 1940 Spitfire New Romney area 1425 hrs Nr.17
2nd September 1940 Spitfire Sittingbourne area 1820 hrs Nr.18
4th September 1940 Spitfire Folkstone area 1010 hrs Nr.19
27th September 1940 Spitfire East of Portland ~1305 hrs u/c
28th September 1940 Hurricane Selsey Bill area 1555 hrs Nr.20
30th September 1940 Hurricane North of Portland 1730 hrs Nr.21
30th September 1940 Hurricane Yeovil area 1735 hrs Nr.22
30th September 1940 Hurricane Sherbourne area 1745 hrs Nr.23
16th April 1941 Spitfire Dover Straits 1200 hrs u/c
29th April 1941 Spitfire North of Eastbourne u/c
29th April 1941 Spitfire North of Eastbourne u/c
19th May 1941 Spitfire West of Weymouth u/c
19th May 1941 Spitfire West of Weymouth u/c

First twenty-one with 1./JG 2, next five with 9./JG 2, last five with 7./JG 2. Seems his claim times are rounded up/down.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 7th October 2017, 15:33
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Re: 19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

Thank you very much Johannes for your list.

Small comment very personal.

About its claims in May and June 1940:
14/05/1940:
Totally unfounded,no MS.406(or others) lost in this schedule and region....therefore to be removed from its list

21/05/1940:
14 German claims(I/JG2,III/JG2,I/JG21,III/JG53) for five MS.406 lost (GC.III/7).
Doubtful that he would be the only winner of two MS.406.

03/06/1940:
24 German claims(I,II,III/JG2,III/JG52,II/JG53,I/JG77,1./JG76) for 3 "poor" curtis H-75 (GC.I/5) lost.

Particularly dubious claims in viev of only 3 losses.Its changes its palmares if one looks more closely!

Best Regards
Michel
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Old 9th October 2017, 13:01
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: 19/05/1941:Machold and Balthasar

Hi Michel

Machold's twenty-three confirmed claims are as such 100% correct. However it doesn't mean to say he actually got them. It is a well know fact that JG 2 claimants were generally making false claims............but not all we so inclined, but know whether this is by pure honesty, or certain Staffel at certain times were being true, therefor did-honest claimers would be found out.

If you remember the movie "The one that got away" von Werra was accused by British intelligence over his four claims in a day of false claims.......as it was these were never confirmed anyway. Perhaps Machold was investigated and judged the same way by British intelligence. I would suggest without any investigation on my behalf that Machold was a fraud!..........please try to prove me wrong.

JG 26 on the other hand generally made honest claims. I would put this don't to Adolf Galland's leadership.

I think just looking at his claims that Baltasar is likely to be of the same metal as Machold..........or even worse maybe.

I have also thought that 7./JG 52 and 9./JG 52 were making false claims for long periods of time......perhaps from the start. Strangely 8./JG 52 seems much better. JG 53 and JG 77 generally not bad.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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