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  #81  
Old 13th January 2020, 06:02
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Craig,

Several losses on May 7, 1945 in Czech and Austria, but no Yaks were lost in the morning. On May 7, 1945 IL-2 Sturmoviks attacked the Miroslav and Znojmo (Brno-SW) area in Moravia in multiple waves throughout the day for the loss of several IL-2s:

17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP, 2nd Sq., IL-2m3, S/N: 12656, white '25', was downed by flak, crashed in Miroslav. Crew of Ml.Lt. Petr Vasilevich Kravtsev - Nikolai Fedorovich Chertov was KIA. Last fatal combat loss of the 715 ShAP in WWII. Poor guys...

5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 12586 crashlanded at their airfield after attacking Miroslav due to flak in the afternoon. Hitarashvili - Lebedin crew OK.

5 VA, 7 GvShAD, 130 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 18895118 crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?)-NW, 2 km, Hohenau-N,-NW, 30 km in the afternoon after attacking Miroslav. Later repaired, Nazarov-Velitskovich crew OK.

17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP attacked the Znojmo area at Brno-SW, one IL-2m3, S/N: 18870106 crashed at Zizendorf(?), Austria en route home. Bershak crew OK.

5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 1874799, white '95', crashlanded at Zaichi(Зайчи?) due to flak. Karpitskii-Savchenko crew OK.

IL-2m3 of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, S/N: 11461 was written-off for wear and tear.

5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-7FN, S/N: 45212545 was lost after escorting 9 IL-2 to Miroslav in the afternoon and crashlanded at base (Htrasshof, Austria) Ml.Lt. Alexandr Gerasimovich Spirin was unhurt.

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 190 GvShAP IL-2m3, S/N: 18872128 at 14:50 local, crashed at Dürnkrut-W, 5 km in Austria. Gv.Lt. Emelyan Sergeevich Anukhin Sq. commander crew OK.

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, 1st Sq., IL-2m3 Sturmoviks, S/N: 1877086 and 11041 were repaired at base due to combat damages.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 18177 burned on Luzhitse (Лужице) airbase at 21:25 PM local due to maintenance mistake after mission.

We still can check reports on dogfights, but there were no fighter losses for Hartmann, that's for sure.

Overall I am a bit skeptic about the date errors/changes, because if we accept them, then there are no limits. If anything can change, then everything is possible, so then what's the point to investigate any claims at all? That is why I think here we have to stay with the written claims. If they messed them up, too bad, what is written is written. (Same for the soviets...)

Summary: no matter how we twist them, looks like Hartmann's 352nd was just another overclaim - among his many.

Regards,
Gabor
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  #82  
Old 13th January 2020, 12:34
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Just a side-note to the final days of WWII in Moravia. In May, 1945 the German opposition in the air has completely lost its power. Soviet crews of 5 and 17 VA very often have not even seen German planes in the air. If they have, then they were not aggressive at all, and tried to avoid any confrontation. In most cases they were just recce. planes, or air-cabs/taxies, transporting high officers to zones, where they could surrender to Western Allies, instead of the much feared soviet captivity. (Eg. He 111, lost on May 8, 1945, downed by Yaks of Gv.Lt.Col. Georgii Ageevich Lobov, commander of 7 GvIAD and his wingman, Svidirov, at Mělník (Praha-N) was probably just another taxi-flight to Western zone, as being (one of?) the last German air-to-air combat loss in Europe during WWII.)


But German tank- (Flakpanzer, flakvierling) and flak fire remained very dangerous until the last day. See the large number of IL-2 losses at low altitude, lost to flak (or flak related accidents.) Dogfights were extremely rare and this is why Hartmann's final claim is not realistic at all. Absolutely no sign of combat, or soviet fighter loss, that can match his 352nd claim. Neither Yak, nor La.

Gabor
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  #83  
Old 14th January 2020, 06:51
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Gabor,

Your comment about the Germans avoiding combat in the air makes sense and appears to be supported by known German claims data. Hartmann’s claim is the only claim that is known in this region of the Eastern Front in May 1945. According to Tolliver/Constable, Hartmann was sent on a reconnaissance mission by Graf “to find out how far the Russian spearhead was from Deutsch Brod” (JG52s airfield) when he made his last claim – which also supports your statement about Luftwaffe activities. So, yes aerial combat would be rare as you state.

With respect to the date of the claim, I’m not trying to twist with date errors/changes as you suggest – I’m questioning the validity of the data that everyone is basing their research on. You state that we have to stay with the written claims but my point is that beside the Tolliver/Constable work based on Hartmann’s recollections, written and published 25 years after the event – a book that is full of errors - where is the written supporting documentation that confirms that this claim actually occurred on the 8th May?. – if it was based on hard data such as being recorded in the Unit KTB (last recorded Hartmann claim was his 150th claim on 17th April 1945), I would not be questioning the validity but as far as I can see it’s based on memory 25 years after the event. – Most researcher state that memoirs are generally unreliable for detailed information.

If we’re lucky, Hartmann’s last logbook that was souvenired at the end of the war by his American captors will one day surface out of someone’s wartime memorabilia and answer many of these questions.

Regards,

Craig…
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  #84  
Old 14th January 2020, 13:04
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Craig, yes, that logbook would be a real treasure! I am afraid back then Hartmann's captors did not see the value and significance of that logbook and perhaps it went missing in the past few decades forever. Hope not. Certainly if I spend a decade in captivity, my memory would loose so much details. Wondering which of Hartmann's claims are supported by official unit documents and which ones are only from personal memoires? Anyways, until it's cleared out, here are the last Yak losses of the soviet 5 VA in Moravia in April-May, 1945:

5 VA, 331 IAD has scrapped ('износ') many planes due to wear and tear between April 26 - May 7,1945:

April 26, 1945. Combat for Brno. Covering troops in 58 sorties beside 14 recce. sorties:

Yak-1B, S/N: 03168, '03' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.
Yak-9T, S/N: 0815305, '10' (122 IAP) - already in service on January 01, 1945.

April 27, 1945. Combat for Brno. Covering own troops and 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD. 3 dogfights without own combat losses. 2 Fw 190s downed:

Yak-1B, S/N: 10175
Yak-1B, S/N: 45182, '45' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.
Yak-1B, S/N: 48182, '48' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.
Yak-9T, S/N: 1015333, '33' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.
Yak-9T, S/N: 1515351, '51' (513 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.

April 29, 1945. Covering 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD in the Viskov area in 79 sorties. 1 Me 109 downed in dogfight without combat loss:

Yak-1B, S/N: 34176, '34' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.

May 5, 1945. 14 sorties, no special event:

Yak-1B, S/N: 27169, '27' (179 IAP) - already in service on January 14, 1945.

May 7, 1945. Covering 5 VA IL-2s of 264 ShAD, 4 GvShAD in 180 sorties. 6 recce. sorties, no combat loss:

Yak-1B, S/N: 18177, '18' (179 IAP) - burned during refill/maintenance at night. Already in service on January 14, 1945.


5 VA, 6 GvIAD scrapped on April 28, 1945 two fighters:

Yak-1B, S/N: 24175
Yak-9D, S/N: 1615370

Much more interesting plane was a Yak-1B of 31 GvIAP on May 2, 1945 as being one of the last Yak combat losses of the 5 VA:
5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-1B, S/N: 39174, lost at 13:50 local at 600-700 m. 4 (2x2) Yaks, covering ground forces at Viskov. Flight was under flak fire. Pair-leader, Morozov after the 'flak-dance' lost his wingman Kutsenko, when 2 'Fw 190's attacked them in a quick ambush. Pilot, Gv.Ml.lt. Grigorii Emelyanovich Kutsenko went missing. Believed that he was lost during crashlanding after being hit by flak. (or a fighter, which could be a Bf 109 pair as well!!!) Too bad, these are just theories, no evidences on any side for this.

And another one:

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, 1st Sq., Yak-9D, S/N: 2015367, lost on April 23, 1945 between 11:20-12:30 local, during crashlanding at Nesedlovice(?) while covering ground troops. Hit by flak, engine stopped, crashlanded. Plane broken, pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Petr Arsentevich Folomeenkov was injured.

Gabor
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  #85  
Old 14th January 2020, 23:52
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Craig
I would like to see evidence that the log books were looted/taken by Americans. It looks to me more like an excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds. I cannot imagine that none has surfaced out of a number claimed to be stolen.
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  #86  
Old 15th January 2020, 03:01
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Franek, very interesting thoughts... I have not even thought of that.

Some info for March 7, 1945. Hartmann claimed 2 Yak-9s this day as his 242nd and 243rd claims. I do not have further details. I have two Yak-9D losses for this day in Southern-Poland. I am wondering if these losses were in Hartmann's op. area, or they were too far from it and therefore they were lost to somebody else?

4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 1515363, engine: М-105 пф №4-3191 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Ochaby (Drogomyśl-S, 3 km), in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 15:00, local. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev (1922-1945) was MIA. His assigned PL-3M parachute number was: ПЛ-3М-109230. Single IL-2(KR?) of 100 OKRAP, escorted by 2 Yak-9D of the same unit was flying recce. mission in the Прухна-Драгомысль area. Leader: Lt. Vladimir Fedorovich Stakanov, wingman: Vasilii Ivanovich Bizyaev. Flight was attacked by pair of Fw 190s, Bizyaev was shot down. (It could be pair of Bf 109s as well around the Czech border.) No further info.

4 Ukr. Front, 8 VA, 100 OKRAP, Yak-9D, S/N: 3015340, engine: М-105 ПФ №435-440 from Novosibirsk, factory No.153, lost at Drogomyśl-S, 2 km in Southern-Poland, near the Czech border. Took off at 14:20, local. Pilot, St.Lt. Valerii Vasilevich Kremeshkov (1921-1945) was MIA. He was the leader of the other Yak-9D pair, escorting another single IL-2(KR?) photo-recce. plane of the 100 OKRAP. The number of his assigned PL-3M type parachute was: ПЛ-3М № 16721. He was also downed by a pair of 'Fw 190s' (which could be Bf 109s as well). No further info.

ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 466940, дело 1, л. 26.
ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354724, дело 4, л. 39-41.
ЦАМО, фонд 100 ОКРАП, оп. 354722, дело 5, л.79.

(I must emphasize, that I am not familiar with Hartmann's op. areas out of Hungary! These are just guesses, being close to the Czech border.)

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 15th January 2020 at 04:30.
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  #87  
Old 15th January 2020, 05:03
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Gabor,

From information I got from Johannes, the 2 claims of the 7th March 1945 are in the unit KTB and he has them listed as in the Breslau/Brieg area.

The 2 claims of 6th March are also in the unit KTB and are listed in the R Oppeln-Brieg area - unfortunately not times.

Regards,

Craig...
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  #88  
Old 15th January 2020, 06:35
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Franek,

Good point. Only seen in the Tolliver/Constable book and some quoted Hartmann interviews.

I actually believe the part about the logbook being taken by US GI’s to be true, but I’ve always wondered if it was taken by a typical GI rather than an Officer. American soldiers at that time wouldn’t have known who Hartmann was and in general would be more interested in items of value such as medals and watches etc rather than paperwork. An officer may see more value in it particularly for intelligence but what would be the point at the end of the war – therefore it’s either been dumped/burned or put away in some attic/storage and forgotten about.

As to the missing logbook to be a convenient excuse to avoid discussion on actual deeds – I don’t think so. Hartmann’s first logbook with claims up to number 150, was used by Tolliver/Constable in their book. Apparently, he had left it at home at some point before the end of the war, thus didn’t have it with him when he was captured. This is evident in the book, because the first 150 claims had mission numbers (whcih would only been available in the flugbuch) and the detail of these 150 claims have compared very well against the claims in the claims’ films – which was made public at a much later date after the publishing of the book. There are a few differences between the book and the claims files but not many. With this accuracy they had to have had the logbook. So, why would Hartmann make this available but hold back on his other logbook – not likely in my opinion.

Regards,

Craig..
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  #89  
Old 15th January 2020, 07:34
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

Personally I think a lot of the Tolliver/constable book is not based on fact. I very well remember the "four Mustangs" story, that certainly never happened.

With the KBT papers for 1945, Hartmann is mentioned, but JG52 claims or some season weren't given times, other units, and by memory I think all other units times were given. Other high scoring pilots were mentioned by name, and the claim given a number i.e Hartmann 343.

The Hartmann claims that were not mentioned during 1945 in the KBT papers should not be regarded with any hope of being accurate, in fact most could be weeks or a month wrong in there date, and type could also be incorrect.

With the Hartmann claim 352 I should think that the pilot himself might remember his last being on the last day of the war, and the Toliver/Constable book states that it came down in a square in the centre of Brünn.

I am suspicious of any high scoring pilot that didn't have any unconfirmed. or A.S.M claims, Rall is lacking, but we are not questioning his, Nowotny also lacking. but his are certainly questionable, with Hartmann there were a few early on, then they abruptly stop, I would imagine that earlier on he must have been honest, as with Wilhelm Batz.

All those pilots that claimed ten or more a day in the east seem to be questionable, and the guy thought to be the most accurate in the "200" club has a best day of five(Lipfert). There are certain patterns to "over-claiming", but there can always be exceptions to the rules I guess.

Hartmann's preferred attack method was from above, the Bf109 had pretty bad visibility at best, and not surprisingly "Il-2 experten" seemed more accurate, I would guess they attacked from below where their aircraft had better visibility. Hartmann had one of the lowest Il-2 percentage amongst his claims, perhaps here is another topic, why should he be given the privilege of being safe away from ground-fire, while others seemed to be taking higher risks at low-altitude hacking down these heavily armoured ground-attack aircraft?

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #90  
Old 15th January 2020, 11:24
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Over Brünn, interestingly the soviet bombers suffered very heavy losses in April, 1945. Especially April 25, 1945 was intense, when they lost 3 Bostons to Hartmann's I./JG 52 fighters. Surprisingly Hartmann claimed a P-39 this day, which was not present in the Brünn area.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................................

April 19, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, A-20G-40-DO Boston, S/N: 43-21364, lost to flak over Brünn, crashlanded at Loděnice. Bombardier/navigator bailed out, radioman was MIA, pilot died during landing. Survivor female gunner, Vasilisa Sergeevna Pashenko in fear of torture and rape, commited suicide when the plane was approached by German troops.

April 23, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54174, lost to flak over Brünn, crashed at Holáskách. Entire crew of Lt. Ivan Pavlovich Beloglazenko was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 48 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54202, red '2' lost to flak over Brünn, crashed IN Brünn! Entire crew of 1Lt. Dmitrii Sergeevich Bongard was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO Boston, S/N: 42-53953, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Heršpice in a hillside forest. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Jurchenko was KIA.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-30-DO Boston, S/N: 43-9781, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Ruprechtov. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, Lt. Anatolii Alexeevich Vetrov was KIA. Plane arrived only 5 days earlier, on April 20, 1945 in the 5 VA, 453 BAP from 7 VA, 114 GvDBAP, operating in the Norway region in the North.

April 25, 1945: 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54221, lost in a dogfight to Bf 109s of I./JG 52 over Brünn, crashed at Vacenovice, Brünn-SE. Yak-3 escort from 31 GvIAP. Pilot, 1Lt. Mihail Levanovich Kakulia survived the crash.

Any such claims in I./JG 52?????

No soviet fighter losses in this dogfight. (La-7FN, S/N: 45211033 of 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP was lost to flak and crashed at Babice nad Svitavou. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexeii Ivanovich Menshikov was KIA.)

Gabor
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