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  #1  
Old 12th September 2006, 00:06
Kurfürst Kurfürst is offline
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Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

Dear Gentlemen,

I am looking for factuality behind the various Luftwaffe bombings of Warsaw in the Polish campaign in 1939, more precisly, I wish to know the intended nature of those attacks, preferably while relying on German sources and not contemporary press/post war authors influenced material.

Was spreading terror considered a goal by the planners back them, were targets specified in order to achieve this, or the terror bombing version is influenced by contemporary and post-war press?

This is understandibly a sensitive subject, that's why I am inquiring about it here, where we have so many cool heads and lots of papers to work from around.

So, what is the picture of the nature of these bombings from September 1939 German documentation, orders etc?

TIA!
  #2  
Old 12th September 2006, 11:07
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

'The Luftwaffe War Diaries' by Cajus Becker outlines the backgound to the bombing of Warsaw. Briefly it claims that Warsaw had been turned into a Fortress City and the bombing of the 25th. Sept. was to get the city to surrender which one assumes was to avoid committing ground troops to house to house fighting.
  #3  
Old 12th September 2006, 21:25
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

Hi
depends of period of Polish defence.

On the begining to smash the command (army+capital) and main centre of Poland resistance (1. IX - 8 IX(
During the seige of Warsaw in the last phase of the defence it was simple terror or bandids German bombs attack on civil's homes. hospitals, power plants, ect.. There are many information from Polish civilians, who were under these attacks. For example quite severe bandids attack on civil population were done on the right side of Warsaw - Praga.
The losses among civil Polupation after this bandids German attack were very severe. Probably when you go to Vikipedia there should be some information in English about casulty rate.

This terror/bandids attack had great influence on breaking the Polish resistsnce.
German had repeted this bandids "trick" over Belgrad in April 1941.

Regards
Mirek Wawrzysńki

PS
German loved to call all what should be conquered as a festung/fortress. In fact the warsaw was not so big and strong fortress as it was presneded in many war-tiem German publication.
Second this is easy explanation and escaping form the responsiblity of mordering civil. Frotess is military word. It is such a German "PR" to cover their bandids habits towards civils made during the WW II.
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  #4  
Old 13th September 2006, 11:26
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

Hello,

it is very funny reading such nonsenses again. The word "Festung" (Fortress) was used by the German military for all cities (also German cities later in the war) which should be defended for a long time bounding as much as possible of enemy troops. Festung Breslau 1945 is a good example also. And there were many others. It has nothing to do with hiding war crimes. (!?)

Warsaw was called a "Festung" because it was sieged for many days by German troops (Warsaw was full of Polish troops defending it). The worst aerial attack was done on the 25th September, but the intention was not to terrorize civilians. The city should be brought to surrender for many reasons (for example some area around Warsaw should be handed over to the Red Army).

All bombing attacks planned for 16th and 17th were ceased (KG 4 dropped 4 tons of leaflets on the 16th! - not the right way for terror bombing, isn`t it?). On the 17th should appear Polish parlamentaires (civilian population and diplomats should leave the city), but they didn`t!
Until the 25th happened as good as nothing. So the theory of terrorizing civilians is completely irrational.

A tip for Mirek: look to The Hague Conventions from 1907 and what they state about defended cities (when a city can be treated as a military target?).
And two questions to Mirek before this thread will be closed or completely removed from this forum:
1.Why are you repeating so often the word "bandid"?
2.
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There are many information from Polish civilians
For every civilian bombing was seen as terror against him.
But what about some documents?


Marius
  #5  
Old 13th September 2006, 16:17
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

Hi
Marius you have not to read it (no "SS-man" is standing drirectly behind you and ordering you to do it), you have free will.

See, if you want to broaden your knowledge, buy or borror two volumes about:
"Cywilna obrona Warszawy we IX 1939", IH PAN, PWN, Warszwa 1964.
Second
"Obrona Warszawy w 1939 r. Wybór dokumentów", WIH, MON, Warszawa 1968.
These books are fundamental works (documents, reports, memories ect. about the defence of Wasaw in 1939 from civil - 1-st - and from military point of view - 2-ed - + presonal expirience in the 1-st.

There are almost daily reports about above topic. The first is even better many reports writtne by people who did work in city institutins and have very broaden point of observation and gathering information about city condition.


If I am right, Marius Emmerling is strong belive, that main Luftwaffe objective/tragets/ was to attack Polish city - Warsaw - only by using of paper. Not such nasty things like bombs ect, were "ever' used over Warsaw. And each German crew over Warsaw was forbbiden by high auhority's order to attack any single civil targets. You have very radiculus point/attitude on military history in WW II (?).

On 24/25 IX 2005 there were terror/bandids attack on civil population in Warsaw to breaking the spirit of defence nad to make own losses minimal. It was good done by Luftwaffe and with great success (this time there were not paper leaflets as Marius wants to see and belive as main tools of Lufftwaffe over Warsaw). The city had fallen in 4-3 days later.

There are much more publication about this period (like Obrona Warszawy by Marian Porwit, or second similar title by Marian Drozdowski - Alarm dla Warszawy. Obrona cywilna stolicy we IX 1939), but for Marius these books are not credible becasue he does not belive in any Polish decuments, memories; thinking about them as total false, not true and credilbe - only Polish propaganda and myth.
BTW Marian Porwit was one of senior commanders (he was professional officer) during the defence of Warsaw.

Only German documents are 100% true other data, thses made among enemies are propaganda's values and simply laises. OK you have right to promote such vision about aviation history in your publication, which is easily recognised and seen. I also have right to say you, that this is not credible attitude toward the past and glorification of nazim - in my private opinion. You are - in my opinion - neo-nazist/fashist oriented author.


PS
Why I am using so often "bandids attacks" - the answer is simple. Then there were many such bandids attacks made on civil tragets by German crews, many strafings on the city streets and homes.
In fact better do not talk futher about this.
There are not discution with neo-fashist as Marius.
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  #6  
Old 13th September 2006, 17:16
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: A warning!!!

OK, guys, if the personal attacks continue I will lock and delete this thread.

If you want to discuss the subject, do so with specific, DOCUMENTED facts, not accusations, inuendo, and what might be hersay.

This is the only warning you will get.
  #7  
Old 13th September 2006, 19:04
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

John,

please show me where I did personally attack Mirek or someone other? As you wrote "guys" I think you mean us both (?!).


Mirek,
What you are doing here is not fair. Please show me where my "opinions" are of "neo-fascism" kind. Please with title, page ond so on.

Furthermore please quote a document showing us that the bombings on Warsaw were not directed against enemy troops but against civilians (even maybe with the intention to terrorize the people?).

And please comment The Hague Conventions (Art.25, 27 ... - about defended and undefended cities and so on) concerning Warsaw in September 1939.

In forward many thanks!
Marius

P.S.Mirek, interestingly you are writing about books written in Poland in the sixties & seventies!

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for Marius these books are not credible becasue he does not belive in any Polish decuments, memories; thinking about them as total false, not true and credilbe - only Polish propaganda and myth.
You better should differe documents from memories and legends. Please show us the documents presented there.
  #8  
Old 13th September 2006, 19:30
Hauptmann Hauptmann is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

Hello,

bombing civilian targets is part of aerial warfare...
You bomb civilian targets to get down the moral of the civil population and their support to the leadership...
Why did the americans and the british bomb german, japanese and italian cities???
I'm not saying that it's nice... but it helps winning a war...
  #9  
Old 13th September 2006, 19:53
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

... and so we have to speak (with the words from Mirek Wawrzynski) from "simple terror or bandids (American/ British) bombs attacks on civil's homes, hospitals, power plants, etc ..." --- or not?

The mentioned things and a lot of old churches and historical houses were destroyed during the great bomb raid in December 3/4, 1943, against Leipzig --- all important war targets.

Only a thought for Mr. Wawrzynski.
  #10  
Old 13th September 2006, 20:43
Hauptmann Hauptmann is offline
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Re: Bombing of Warsaw in 1939.. goals?

A war must be fougth to win it... civilian casualties are part of every war... The big problem ist that shooting on the Germans is easier than shooting on the Red Cross... The damages caused by german bombers on the UK were nothing if cosidered to the damages and casualties caused by allied bombers... but Germany lost the war... Goering would have been sentenced to dead if he wouldn't have committed suicide... Harris got a statue ( The city of Dresden protested against it... ) ...
The allied didn't any experimentation on jews... but as war ended they pretended from the japaneese their research material on experiments using living humans... and they probably got also all the datas from the german experiments...
In Italy, where I leave, the comunist partisans commited atrocities that the germans didn't even think about... but they won the war... so the germans are the evil... and all wath the commies did was done to liberate Italy...

The winners writes history for their advantage...
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